It's funny that the Land Rovers are compared somewhat with Jeeps. It is ironic that in both their pasts..each was using this US automaker's gruntwork for power sources. Do you guys remember?...Ah, yes..Old Buick Motor Division supplied both Jeep and Rover with V-8s and a V-6!.In Jeep's case the "Dauntless V-6" '65-'69?; and the V-8 350 Buick in the "Super Jeep" '67-'69?...not sure exactly & with Rover- Sold them the engine cast & tooling for the 215 cid aluminum V-8...in the Rovers and Disco's until just recently 2002 right?...Interesting!

My point exactly Blowfeld; it is how I feel when I compare the '05 GC to my '93 GC...there really is NO comparison. As for the writer who suggest I trade up to a '99-'04?..Well I prefer the tried n' true 5.2!

should have used all that "$$" they spent on that act producing an AFFORDABLE Wrangler. Glad all the "Jones'" now have a Jeep of their very own.
I am afraid to say that the next Hummer series will be going after the storied Wrangler. Not everyone wants to pay over $11K for Utilitarian Vehicle...I sure won't. Hummer will be able to pull off a no-frills basic woods-beater; with a 5/50 warranty to boot- for less than $12K. wait and see.................

I wouldn't say it was a waste of cash, there was an article about it today at www.carconnection.com that said this - "The event and photo-opportunity drew as many as 500,000 craning heads as the SUV was pulled up the side of the building on the window-washing tracks." 500,000 people watching and who knows how many watched on the news and the internet, I'd say that's a pretty good investment. It probably didn't cost them much to do, just hook the jeep up to a winch and pull it up, they didn't even have to buy TV time, that's one of the best marketing ideas I've seen. It might have been silly in that it didn't prove anything about the capabilities of the Jeep except that it wouldn't fall apart if hanging from the side of a building. Come to think of it, that might be good if you happen to be winching your Jeep and it just happens to slip off a cliff, at least you know that you will be able to hang there for a while.

sorry everyone....I'll take my CSA's anyday.....
(Cast, Solid Axles)

The grand cherokee uses a very different ifs than the liberty. The commander should use a simular system. I am surprised they didn't use the same set up for the liberty???

Jeepy... New Grand as in Commander?

The LR3 is a nice Rover... pricy but you get what you pay for. Next to Jeep, most of the 'wheeled vehicles I see around are Land Rovers. Heck, some Rover drivers even wave to me when I pass them in my Jeep.

Anyone see that the Land Rover LR3 beat out the 2005 GC (among others) as the Motor Trend SUV of the year? Every other GC has won this award in the past.

Onlyonejeep - It probably cost them about $12k to do that promotion. That might be a few billion short of what it would require to develop a new vehicle. If Hummer ever produces a vehicle for $12k, I'll personally come to your campfire and smoke whatever you are smoking with you.

how retarded. what a waste of cash.

Actually, a 2005 Black Jeep Liberty Renegade with the light bar package looks better to me then a Hummer H3. Don't know why but the H3 doesn't look as good as an H2, it looks sort of like a Toyota FJ Cruiser (concept) that was smushed.

here is my comment

I know - what I meant was - I'm not sold on the reliability of the IFS.

Isn't true that it'll use the same IFS that the Liberty does?

If the lighter weight KJ has reliability issues with the IFS, you know that the heavier Grand Cherokee and even heavier Commander will have as many, if not more, issues with the IFS system unless the system is built tougher.

Wyatt, Commander is supposed to be based off of the WK platform, so that means the IFS comes with it...

i agree w/jon, one more reason jeep MUST keep changing and adding products, to attract new customers along w/ the old.

May be I need glasses because it’s spelled MOJAVE.

"There is NO way..NO WAY that the current roster of Jeeps(Liberty, '05 GC or upcoming Wrangler) Will ever be as long-lasting, durable or affordable as JEEPS have been over the past 70 or so years"

I will bet you money that the current Jeeps will last longer than a Jeep built over the last twenty years.
You think a 84 Cherokee or a 89 Wrangler is built much better than a 05 Grand Cherokee or an 05 Wrangler? For the most part vehicles built in the late 70's and 80's were junk or at least they are now. That includes Jeeps. I have had several Jeeps from the 80's and 90's and at the time they were as good as anything else on the road but my current 00 Grand Cherokee is far better in build quality than my 93 GC. The O5 GC is much better than what I am driving now.
With all of that said, that dosen't mean my 89 Cherokee or 95 Wrangler etc.... is not a great vehicle. If taken care of they will last a long time. If driven everyday with the salt filled roads of Illinois they won't last forever.

The hummer h4(wrangler) will have tough time and most likely be the same or more than a wrangler. Not one manufacture has been sucessfull for a long period of time for ex:Toyota fj,suzuki sam.,chevy tracker,ford bronco,scout, and the defender 90. The next to suffer the wraith of the wrangler is the h4!!!!!!!!!

Speaking of the H3, it is the GMC Canyon in SUV form with a Hummer badge. Torsion IFS, Inline 5... they are sharing platforms and its still in the 30's? Shows you what you pay for the name... which is what will never drive any Hummer even under $20,000.

Diesel, thats great news. Ive been looking forward to what AEV had in store for the WK for months. Anyone who hasnt seen the work of American Expedition Vehicles, check out their site. I think the company should be integrated into Jeeps design department, they do factory-quality modifications and design work.

It looks like AEV will be introducing their version of the Grand Cherokee called the MOJAVI at the SEMA show this week. Can't wait to see it.

http://www.aev-conversions.com/

Jason,
but the front diff is the exact same as the liberty.. That is why rumors of the jeep engineers at camp jeep were all over the couple of libertys that were blowing their front diffs!

The grand has alot more torque than the libery will ever have (minus the diesel).

The suspension is different than the liberty though.. It doesn't hang down as low as it does on the liberty.. Jeep should have came up with a steel case for the front diff, not aluminum... But they were probably forced to save weight and probably money... Time will only tell how these two front ends will hold up... But if they were that good then rear ends would be made out of aluminum... You don't see aluminum rear ends on trucks!!

If you want a real nice Land Rover Defender or Series, check out East Coast Rover.

http://eastcoastrover.com/

Also, they do offer two diesel motor options.

here is my comment

I've always liked the old Disco and Range Rover (prior to 1995) look. I went with an XJ though because the Land Rovers are too unreliable and too expensive to maintain.

If the new Commander looks like a big Cherokee Sport, that'll be a plus. I'm still not sold on IFS though.

Man looking at the LR3 website... That is a nice vehicle.. But for that kind of money.... I could build up a jeep to be the same. But one interesting thing is how the land rover is still a boxy look kinda looks like the explorer in a way... Wich explains why they are selling soo much.. People like the box look still.... Another
note.. I ran into some guy who works for chrysler and said that the new grand comming out next year.. well he just said picture the old cherokee sport body style.. I said Yeah I own one.. He said well it's going to look simialar to that.

I don't see how the Liberty looks like the new H3.

here is my comment

Sort of off the topic:

I didn't realize that the new H3 will look so much like a Liberty. Once again Hummer manages to copy Jeep.

Strangely enough, I think that the 2006 H3 – being that it looks a lot like a Liberty – will increase sales of the Liberty. I think it’ll come down to the Liberty costing less and with the diesel option, may be more enticing to consumers.

http://autodeadline.com/Photos?source=Hummer

Does everyone remember how complicated EFI electronic fuel injection was when it was starting to be introduced. Or as least at the time everyone thought that. Now its no big deal. You can go to the local auto parts store and buy aftermarket electronics pretty cheap for most cars built in the 80's and 90's. Think about how complicated a 1984 Jeep was compaired to a 1964 Jeep was. It will be no different in twenty years.
You Jeep guys will figure out how to get these old Jeeps on the road even if it is a 20 year old Liberty.

First, I'd like to say that I love the new Jeeps and am looking forward to new ones. That said, I don't think that you can compare apples to oranges. I think that the new Jeeps are very well built (at least compared to older Jeeps) but I think that they are much less likely to last 20 years like an old Cherokee. Its not because they are less reliable, its because they are harder to work on. I think people are less likely to try and maintain and work on one of these new Jeeps once it gets older because when you open the hood, you can't even see the engine. I love to work on cars, but the new vehicles I have now, I can't imagine going to the junkyard to find a part to keep it going like I used to for my older vehicles. There's too many complex systems, including electrical, airbags, computers, and so forth. Nowdays, any car that gets in an accident and the airbag goes off, it gets junked even if there is only minor damage because airbags are so expensive to replace. I think that over the life of the vehicle, a Liberty will be more reliable than say a 83 Cherokee, but I doubt you will see many 20 year old Liberties on the road come 2023

Yes the old Jeep like my CJ 7 is simple and easy to maintain, but in terms of quality I do think the new generation of Jeeps will last just as long, though they may be a bit more expensive to maintain. Nobody was a bigger basher of the Liberty when it was first released then I was. When my 99 Cherokee lease ended I got a Frontier crew cab, but my parents did get a Liberty and it has completely won me over. The Liberty is great offroad even with the IFS, great in winter storms, well built, and tough. In terms of looks, the 2005 flattened hood and Renegade package really make it 100 times more appealing then it was when it was first released. I would hope to be able to get a 4 door Wrangler next, but I'd also consider a Liberty Renegade with the way it now looks.

I was very down on Jeep when they scrapped the Cherokee, but I am very happy with how their line up has turned out, and with the 4 door Wrangler and the incredible Rescue potentially on the horizon I would say Jeep's future is looking great and I would defintiely like to move back to them when my Frontier lease ends in 2006.

That's an interesting question. I think it comes down to this... is the current Liberty going to last as long as, say, an '88 Cherokee?

Consider this:
1. Everything in the Liberty is more complicated. From the electronics to the suspension.
2. Aftermarket support for a vehicle that was produced almost 18 years (largely) unchanged vs. the Liberty (how long do you think it will last?)
3. The proven 4.0 I6 vs. the 3.7 V6 long-term. The jury is most definitely out on this one. Reaching 200,000 miles with normal maintenance is the norm with the I6. I've heard good things about the V6, and it's past it's early teething trouble in the first model so perhaps it will be a workhorse.

My point here, is that if longevity is question then there's no real advantage of the newer model over the old. The Cherokee is a known quantity in a unique position. It's rare that a design goes largely unchanged for so long and there are a lot of old ones out there proving the value of simplicity. On the other hand, I don't see any major roadblocks that would prevent a Liberty from being dependable over the long term either.

I will say this: twenty years later, and the Reagan-era block that is the Cherokee still looks timeless to me. The Liberty is already looking dated. But that, along with everything else on here, is opinion.

On a side note, the upcoming Jeep Commander looks nothing like the old Commander concept, I don't know what the heck it is, doesn't look like a Rescue though.

After seeing the redesigned Grand Cherokee I have to say I like it. I am not sure if anyone has picked up on this yet, but I would say the New Grand Cherokee is very similar to the Commander concept from a few years back, actually I think the New Grand Cherokee, in terms of lines and body shape / style, IS the final version of what started out as the Commander concept.... I still like the Rescue a lot more, but the Grand Cherokee is a lot better now and should do well. I always liked the Commander concept and see A LOT of it in the new Grand Cherokee.

It is quite a bold statement in which to say that the present GC I own- a Limited 5.2; is MORE APPEALING to me than a NEW ONE......Is Jeep concerned about this? Sour Grapes...? Sore because He/She can't afford one...????It's the same reason I have so much pride in my '95 YJ Rio; "They ain't made like that anymore". Some of you might perceive comments like these as "negative". Well as an optimist I and others like me don't see life that way. We're just stating our obvious preferences for JEEPS that were built like JEEPS...There is NO way..NO WAY that the current roster of Jeeps(Liberty, '05 GC or upcoming Wrangler) Will ever be as long-lasting, durable or affordable as JEEPS have been over the past 70 or so years...Ask one who owns one...And there are some diehards out there who believe the CJ series WAS the last TRUE JEEP...How can it be prudent to spend $20K-$45K on that?

Fun stunt, but seems like the Chrysler building would have been
a more appropritate edifice. Hope it was well received since
Jeep's other promotions haven't exactly been hitting on all
cylinders lately. First I received an invitation to view the new
models at a dealership that's been out of business for months.
Then I get an invitation to the new dealership -- three days after
the event. Oh well, I won't be replacing my TJ anytime soon
anyway...

I still say it is a waste of cash. I mean, why not just suspend the
stupid GC from a crane with David Blaine in it next time? It's just
a tiny spectacle that does nothing for the brand itself. Let me
see, do you think any other brand could do the same stunt and
have the same meaning? Yes. The only way it's 'brand specific'
for Jeep is that it's as lame as their current tv ads. everytime I
see one of those on TV, i always say "huh?" out loud. It's
frustrating seeing these gimmicks when the truck just doesn't
flat out need it to sell. It probably was some tired ad exec hack's
old idea that he finally got to do because everyone else at their
agency was burned out.

The guy that says he will keep is 93 Grand Cherokee with 189,00 miles proves a point.
I am gussing he is not in the market for a 2005 Grand Cherokee becuase of cost. He must not of been in the market for a 99 Grand Cherokee either when they were introduced.
I guess it's just sour grapes. If I don't have the means to buy one, I will just bash it and complain. I think that is what a lot of these negative posts are really. Just Jeep guys that can't afford new ones!

The Wrangler's direct arch rival will be one of the next gen's Hummer series. Do you think that GM/Hummer will stop at H3?.Don't be so sure.H4/H5/H6 Will be down the road. Hopefully Jeep execs are doing their homework and will offer a Jeep FOR EACH price range/level. It needs to. I saw the '05 Grand today-just got back..NOT IMPRESSED....I'll keep my '93 Grand Limited...she's at 189K and to me has it ALL OVER that new "thing".

The idea that hummer will produce a vehicle in the
same class as a wrangler that is cheaper is laughable.
The H3 which will be shown this wednesday is a dead
ringer for the XJ and will cost about $10,000 more.
Hummer considers their products to be status symbols,
and their pricing will always reflect that. Incidently, that
is why Jeep will still be around in 20 years and
Hummer will not.

The Wagoneer was far from humble, it was one of the most advanced and luxurious vehicles of its time. The Wagoneer was off-road capable but it was aimed at luxury. In fact, the Wagoneer was at one point available with an IFS package option.

The Grand Cherokee is meant to fill that luxury utility vehicle spot. It has been that way from day one. With each iteration of the Grand Cherokee, Jeep has walked the delicate line between on-road performance and ride quality and sheer ruggedness and off-road capability. Unfortunately these two items are on different ends of the spectrum and it is impossible to please every one. I have seen the new Grand Cherokee in action and it has one of the quietest interiors and smoothest, quickest SUV rides out there but can DEFINITELY perform off-road. It may not be designed for serious rock crawlers, but for the people willing to drop $30,000 - $40,000 on a vehicle to be used in those type of off-road conditions, there is always the option to do a solid axle swap.

From the preliminary rumors of specifications on the Commander, I would say that vehicle would probably still be Trail Rated.

I do think Jeep will need to view comments such as these when making changes to the next generation Wrangler. Wrangler owners are perhaps the most rabid traditionalists out there. Keep in mind many of the changes that will be made to the next generation will not be at the choice of DaimlerChrysler but will come at the hands of Federal safety regulators.

The bottom line is change is inevitable, to remain competitive and even existant in an ever-changing automotive industry. It will be impossible to please everyone in the process.

jason you are partly correct in your assumption...how many Jeepers do you know that only have owned one CJ or YJ; or TJ? In most cases; as least with our group around here are more than happy for which we own now-and do NOT plan on buying a "new" watered-down replacement anyway. But as Fritz brings up-as far as the Cherokee is concerned; is that it seems the powers that be are not concerned with designing dependable(we're talking 12-20years, Jeeps that would be true to the basic principle of Jeep; i.e.; Utilitarian,rugged,not OVERLY stylish. Is that "kronic complaining"?...No I think it's just a wish that Jeep would return to it's humble storied past(Wagoneer,Cherokee,CJ/YJ/TJ,Jeepster). To "finish" my collection I plan on finding a '88-'91 Grand Wagoneer, '00-'01 Cherokee to add to my '95 YJ Rio and '93 Grand Limited....

Don't be surprised if the commander is not trail rated....None of you kronic complainers would ever buy new jeep anyways

give me a break, change is a part of life, the cherokee was a great suv, BUT it was time for a change...
yeah the commercial was lame but the vehicle is GREAT, come on you guys give it a chance. are you going to complain about every change jeep makes? i guess it's time to start raggin' on the commander...

What a crock. First of all 50,000 observers were predicted and it appears there were no more than a dozen who were likely on their way somewhere else. Plus, didn't it take hours and was accomplished with simple elevator electric technology and said NOTHING about Grand Cherokee performance? It simply showed how desperate Jeep is to push this slug...even up the side of a building...and what a mistake they made discontinuing the simple, efficient Cherokee Sport wagon for that jap-looking Liberty.

Bowser, I do not believe the Grand Cherokee is not using the Dana electronic limited slip differential. Most information I have seen indicates that the Eaton EGerodisc ELSD is used.

http://www.automotive.eaton.com/product/traction_stability/limitedslip.html

Jeep has been doing similar publicity stunts for years with the debut of new models. It is marketing at its best, and marketing is what helps sell vehicles and in turn allows a brand to exist.

I agree that the Grand Cherokee looks better in person and that the photos don't do it justice. The one portion of the design that bothers me is the black air dam on the front end. Luckily this part is removable with just four fasteners. It can be left off for a more agressive look (it is actually suggested that it be removed for serious off-roading) or replaced with a body-colored effects kit from Mopar.

Nice clever stunt to give attention to the new Grand. This added to the Jeep premiere night.

I went to my dealer last night for the Premiere night fun, and they had quite a few Grands. Test drove a few, and I have to admit I like it better in person (the photos do not do it justice). On-road handling felt the same as the 2004 Grands, so I’m not sure IFS really made a big difference. I like the boxy look, but the overall style looks too similar to a Mitsubishi or Ford Explorer. Vehicle also has a bit of ‘Mercedes’ look to it. Wish they would have kept it SFA, but I think it will sell well. Dealer said they have a big push to sell a lot of Jeeps this year.

Sadly they only had one Wrangler Unlimited, and it was an automatic. For fun, we test drove a 6-speed Crossfire. The Crossfire is not trail rated, but sure was a blast to drive around in. The Jeep 6-speed is suppose to be a an off-shoot of the 6 speed in the Crossfire.

For Hemi lovers, the Grand with this beast of an engine does move. If you have a lot of money, AEV will put a Hemi in a Wrangler. The first customer to get one has been talking about his:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112028

For Jeep Rescue fans… latest rumor has been many engineers are hanging out at the Newark plant where the Durango is built. Hints are they are looking into building the Rescue there, but they might switch from using the RAM chassis to the Durango’s.

It was kinda cool. It was funny, but I kind of accidently saw it go up live... lol.

I came here and read the news, followed the link, and just had it sitting on my desktop for a while while I did other stuff. I tabbed back to it to close it, and saw it just starting to climb. Anyway, that Grand doesn't look half bad of a vehicle. If you'll notice on dana.com's site they have a new electronic limited slip unit, is this the same new unit that the Grand Cherokee uses? If so, it looks good. I wonder how much torque difference it can handle?

Some pics, in case you missed it:

http://i.tnpv.us/2004/WKA200410/WKA2004102142591_pv.jpg
http://i.tnpv.us/2004/WKA200410/WKA2004102142548_pv.jpg
http://i.tnpv.us/2004/WKA200410/WKA2004102142519_pv.jpg

wtf mate?

wtf mate?