I don't think Jeep has much to worry about with Hummer. The more I look at them the worse they start to look. Sort of reminds me of the cars in the late 50's when they got big, heavy and ugly. It happened again in the 70's and it's happening again with the SUV's. I think in the end when everone starts trading in their SUV's for crossover(station wagons)vehicles Jeep will still be here. I don't think Jeep needs a full size vehicle to compete with the H2 which wouldn't fit down too many trails anyway. I am glad my Grand Cherokee isn't the largest vehicle on the road and when I pull up next to a H2 in my Wrangler at a stoplight I just laugh and think what a waste.

here is my comment

Everyone should go to www.jeep.com

click on the liberty,grand,or wrangler.

Then click on the trail rated icon.

It shows video clips of the jeeps going through water and traction tests. Very cool video clips.
Actually surprising at just how well the liberty does. Almost better than the grand in the water test.

I am a typical negative Jeep fan that likes to read Mike's Free Jeep News. I don't know why though because everything Jeep does is bad and all I can be is negative. The way I see it Jeep will be out of business soon(oh course, I thought back when they put square headlights on a Wrangler). I don't understand why all these tens of thousands of people keep buying this Jeep crap. Then what about all the idiots that attend Camp Jeep(I think this is it's tenth year?) I just wish Chrysler had never bought American Motors, then all the Jeeps would still be perfect(oh wait, they would be bankrupt, I wonder would of become of Jeep?) Now we have this German company that has a terrible reputation of making high quality cars and think they know how to build by beloved Jeep. You know, deep down I really wish they would fail because they really haven't made a decent Jeep since the CJ.
Big Jeep Fan?

here is my comment

I agree. Although I like the looks of the H1, it is not practical. Something bugs me about the H2 and H3t (as does the Toyota FJ). The look is not classic but futuristic, I guess. I like the classic look. The CJ is a classic. I like the pre-1995 Range Rover as well.

That's why I'm looking foward to the new Jeep Liberty Renegade. I don't think I'll go out and replace my XJ but the new KJ will be a bit closer to the Dakar and farther from the Jeepster.

Too bad it will have IFS. Jeep is showing that their IFS Liberty is as good as a stock XJ or Grand Cherokee. The problem will be the IFS durability and ability to upgrade.

It seems like auto makers tend to improve something 10% but make it 100% more complex and 500% more expensive.

As usual DC is late...GM is testing a Brute type pickup for the 05 in order to compete w/ the hummer. DC has and never will get it together w/ Jeep. From here on out it's catch up game, no longer the leader in the industry, with each year that they play the catch up game they lose their customer loyalty and have a harder time attracting new customers with the same old product.

Sad news KCarlYJ, but Jeep passed up on the Brute many months ago. Actually, I would not blame Jeep for passing it up, some high ups in DC management actually killed the idea.

If our military still had Jeeps they would of caught Saddam quicker than they did. Those Hummers are just too slow and big.

If our military still had Jeeps they would of caught Saddam quicker than they did. Those Hummers are just too slow and big.

As far as the TJ-L and the TJ-8 concept shown at Camp Jeep, you might as well go find a vintage CJ-8 and restore it or contact the Egyptian miltary and buy a surplus if you want one.
The TJ-L and the TJ-8 are too reminiscant of the old CJ-8, and would be a giant step backwards for Jeep. Yes, the CJ-8 was a great truck, but part of what made Jeep great was their ingenuity combined with a sense of what people needed in a vehicle. The Hummer H3T is the step forward into the path that Jeep stands for. A rugged 4WD truck that delivers. The Brute is that answer that Jeep needs. I wouldn't even be surprised if HUMMER based that concept on the Brute, knowing its potential value. I think if Jeep doesn't jump on the Brute soon, the company would have taken a large blow from its military counterpart.
The day we see Jeep resorting to what they had in the past, is the day that the Jeep brand is truely dead.

Rich,

Your getting the TJL confused with the Jeep Unlimited. In Egypt, they build a Jeep called the TJL that is only a pickup truck. This vehicle came out early this year, but it is only available in Egypt. The TJL is very close to the CJ8 (Scrambler). The Jeep Unlimited is like the CJ6.

here is my comment

I agree that the KJ looks too much like a copy of the competition. Part of the joy of owning a Jeep is owning a vehicle unlike any other. I think the Grand Cherokee looks too "main steam" as well.

I bashed the H3t yesterday but I just saw the specs -

A 350-horsepower, turbocharged version of GM's new Vortec 3500 inline five-cylinder engine powers the H3T

11.5 inches of ground clearance, gives the H3T a 51-degree approach angle and a 50-degree departure angle - critical measures on HUMMER's internal "off-road performance metric" of capabilities.

I don't know if the production model will be so robust but it doesn't look bad at all.

I think it's a good thing for Jeep to have a little competition. Jeep will only take HUMMER sales away if the produce good vehicles.

here is my comment

Wow! Those video clips are pretty cool.

You are right. It does appear the liberty went through the water better than the grand did.

Hmmnn Maybe the liberty isn't as bad as I thought.

I am a typical motivational speaker that likes to read Mike's Free Jeep News and comment on the discussion. I don't know why though because everything discussion members post is bad and I can't stand all that negativity. The way I see it if I employ sarcasm then people will realize that everything Jeep is doing absolutely perfect and beyond reproach. I don't understand why all these tens of thousands of people keep posting criticisms of some of DC's decisions. Then what about all the idiots that attend Camp Jeep(I think this is it's tenth year?) I just wish Daimler Chrysler would stop making Wranglers, then all Jeeps would finally be perfect to drive to the mall without rattling my overly-active bladder when driving over potholes (oh wait, they would be bankrupt, I wonder would of become of Jeep?) Now we have this German company that has a terrible reputation of building luxury cars and think they know how to build my beloved Jeep. You know, deep down I really wish they would start making Subaru Forester clones so I wouldn't have to climb all that way up into the truck with an armful of groceries.
Big Jeep Fan, indeed.

here is my comment: I find it odd and maybe wonderful that what I have learned about the Unlimited is already out there with the aev vehicles. I guess I live outside the Bute circle but find this a very desireable looking drive. From what I've read the 104 wb will be what dcx will use. the 112 wb looks to be a 'total' vehicle, the Brute would fill that missing Jeep truck gap that been empty for too long. This company is doing some nice work. If dcx is entering into an agreement with aev it looks like it could work. To me this would be akin to ASC doing sun roofs and convertibles for several manufacturers, some in house, some shipped back and forth. More power to them both.
Waiting to see more...

The same company that dumped the M80 concept! Sad
I wish they didn't come out with the TJL actually...because I've ALWAYS wanted one,,and now I can't afford to buy a Jeep for a while! Waaaaaa..I sunk all my dough into aftermarket
goodies for my 2000 Sport

NO! The TJL is closer to the old CJ6, not the
Scrambler...damn I feel like I spin my wheels on these sites!

Let me throw a few comments in here:

1) I’ve been bashing Jeep for a bit too, but on the other hand, what other company makes an affordable off-road truck like the Wrangler? Thank you Jeep for still giving us one of the only affordable true off-road machines.

2) As far as the last good Jeep was a CJ, yes, the CJ was a very awesome truck, but on the other hand, the CJ would not meet safety or pollution rules that the YJ and TJ have to meet. Once again, my hats off to Jeep engineering for building a vehicle so close to the CJ, and meeting the stringent rules the government has given us. In addition, the TJ does not have the luxury of having military based cousins to help reduce the cost of manufacturing. In many ways, Jeep has done some outstanding work in building a niche vehicle, and still be profitable.

3) As far as Jeep having to diversify to make profit, I partly agree, but I think they need to do it the Jeep way, not follow and duplicate what others have done. The KJ is so similar to so many other little SUVs it hardly seems like a Jeep. The KJ is ok, but it lacks the ‘Jeep’ characteristics. In addition, the KJ has not been some great sales dynamo that has pulled Jeep out of the dumpsters.

I’ve been told adding a small pickup to the Jeep line is a niche of a niche. True, but that is what Jeep does well. Niche markets can also be very surprising. Look at the PT cruiser. Chrysler did not imagine sales of this goofy little truck would ever amount to much. They targeted the vehicle to the ‘California’ style youth. Well, a big surprise happened. Older people are the major buyers, and this little odd-ball of a vehicle became a huge success.

I do think Jeep needs to expand their line, and Jeep engineers and Jeep management seem they have tried. The TJL and Jeep attempting to build the Brute are good examples. The sad news is DC management keeps hand tying Jeep so they can’t let Jeep be Jeep. Who knows what other neat thing Jeep engineers and Jeep management wanted to do.

I don't think Jeep has much to worry about with Hummer. The more I look at them the worse they start to look. Sort of reminds me of the cars in the late 50's when they got big, heavy and ugly. It happened again in the 70's and it's happening again with the SUV's. I think in the end when everone starts trading in their SUV's for crossover(station wagons)vehicles Jeep will still be here. I don't think Jeep needs a full size vehicle to compete with the H2 which wouldn't fit down too many trails anyway. I am glad my Grand Cherokee isn't the largest vehicle on the road and when I pull up next to a H2 in my Wrangler at a stoplight I just laugh and think what a waste.

here is my comment

It always seems to go back to the same argument. Many want Jeep to produces CJ's. Jeep needs to make money so they compromise and build KJ's.

Both sides have their points. Jeep should never go soft and ruin its name. Jeep needs to make money and so they build Jeeps such as KJ's and Grands to bring people to Jeep.

Jeep should continue to build their money makers as long as they are not too soft and build CJ-like Jeeps on a limited basis.

I do like the AMC Jeeps more than the DC Jeeps but I do see the need for DC to make $.

Jeeps should always be light weight, workhorses that maximize the interior space while minimizing the enterior space; a boxy look as a result.

Well, once again, DC management passes on another good one. If Jeep had produced the Brute, this would have filled the gap Jeep has had, and they would have beaten Hummer to the punch. Take a look at the H3T concept that will be shown in January:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6677

The Brute is reminiscent of the old Dodge Power Wagon, which is another concept DC passed up. Remember a few years ago, this retro-design was being pushed around as a possible new Dodge, and Jeep was going to get a variation too.

How come Jeep has to rely on an outside company like AEV to do all their design work? The Unlimited is basically the 104LWB that AEV has been producing for several years.

Jeep spends good money designing the TJL, which is much closer to the old CJ8 (Scrambler) then the Unlimited pickup. The TJL is longer than the Unlimited, and would have provided an ample pickup box area. Even our own military was kicking the tires on this one. The TJL is already in production, and Jeep passes up on this. Who is making the decisions for Jeep?

The TJL when tested by our own military passed all the tests, and was one of the only test vehicles that did not break down. Like the old CJ6 (yes Rich, I do remember that vehicle), which was a 20-inch stretch over its parent model the CJ5, Jeep has already been down the path of stretched Wranglers. The CJ6 unfortunately was not a big seller, but it had a military counterpart, which was why Jeep could sell a consumer version (the CJ6). I realize the Scrambler or a small pickup in Jeeps line is probably not going to sell in a high volume, but coupled with Military or other commercial applications like park districts and forestry use, a small pickup would sell enough to provide a reasonable profit. Personally, I like the idea of the Unlimited, but it does not open any new doors in the Jeep line. Basically, the same consumer that buys the Wrangler is the same one that is going to buy the Unlimited.

Now if I had my choice, the Brute design is my favorite. If Jeep had latched onto selling this model, they could produce a higher volume than AEV with a better price tag. In addition, lower cost entry version could be made to attract the youth market. I know AEV has not produced the Brute for consumers because of an issue with a replacement fuel tank in passing DOT safety tests. AEV does not have the funds to deal with the ‘red tape’, but DC certainly could.

Oh well, once again, DC management keeps screwing up.

I thought it was a little weird that they showed the Brute at last years CAMP JEEP. Since it isn't a regular production model I kinda wondered then if they might have been working on making their own version. But, alas its just another cool Jeep that won't be factory built. Suprise, suprise.