Not 1 but 2 CUVs?

I am sure when Pete mentioned a Jeep "sportscar" he was talking about something closer to the Jeepster concept or the Compass concept, not the traditional type of sportscar (Corvette, etc). I too want something sporty, just not a sportscar. A Jeep dunebuggy, or a rally inspired Jeep, as it were. And no, that doesnt mean I want to tackle the Paris-Dakar race. ;-)

Hey, there is updated Jeep news on the home page, hurray, lets put this post to bed. :-P

"I love sports cars, it would rock to buy one from Jeep"

K, Pete... First of all I don't complain much about the liberty other than I would personally prefer a SFA and maybe a little bit more aggresive look... maybe an off-road package with bigger tires. I think those are pretty reasonable wants.

Secondly my Jeep is 100% Jeep... so are most other "hard core" Jeep owners. Thats the nice thing about Jeep is that you can go off-road with nearly any one of thier vehicals... and yes in my opinion it is diluting for them to make a "Sports car"... I can barley wait for these posts to fill up with people talking about how loud thier exhuasts are and the big aluminum wings & stickers they put on make thier Mini-van/hatchback go faster.

Which leads into my last comment....
there is no sports Jeep sports car. Its a hatch back / Minivan that is expected to go from 0-60mph in like 9 seconds... to put that in perspective thats about 1.5 seconds slower than my XJ will go 0-60... and its nearly stock.

So like I said before, if you want a sports car or a rally car (so you can go race Dakar Im guessing) go buy a Subaru or a Honda.

Yeah come on Mike, its been over a week now!

Just a something to add off topic on the C.R.D. If you go to the DCX corp site and read through their stories on the Jeep Liberty it talks about a "new era of diesel passenger vehicles at Chrysler Group", and how the C.R.D is "intended to test the response of U.S. consumers to modern, clean efficient diesel technology." In that same article and another from DCX that was in a previous discussion on this site it talks about how pleased DCX is with the sales so far.

The reason why I bring this up is that from the 2 articles I get the feeling we WILL to see the diesel in other Jeeps and DCX products. It's really not a question of IF, but of WHEN. Chances are the Wrangler will get a diesel when they release the new TK, but I hope it wil be sooner.

Hey on another note. My friend wife and I seen the new H3 at a store parking lot the other day.
My friend is into jeeps alot.. Even he said.. I have to admit... IT really doesn't look that bad.
That I think will be more competition for the grand than the land rover.. You can get locking rear diffs! You have to go up to a V8 to be trail rated in a grand? They seem to be pricing
them base at $29,999.. Hmmnnn they are no doubt
trying to eat into the Grand sales. Only this time they might have a winner.. Time will only
tell.. But I do have to admit.. IT didn't really
look too bad up close.

I am looking forward to Jeep coming out with the Compass, et al. My wife drives a 2003 GC and I drive a 98 Cherokee with over 200,000 miles on it. We both drive a hour to work--one way--so having something a little more easier on the fuel bill is something I look forward to. As mentioned in previous posts, these will not be Jeep's first foray in non-4 wheel drive vehicles. Heck, they make the 2005 Jeep GC in 2 a wheel drive model, don't they?

I will still keep the ol' Cherokee. She'd be hard to part with after all the miles we've shared. She still runs great and love it's ability in the harsh winters in northwest Indiana.

Jon, there IS no debate...ANY Jeeper knows what SFA was,is,and ALWAYS will be....

Has anybody check out the Commander video?
I like the looks of it on and off road. Any thoughts?

This is just something I found at auto123.com that everyone may find interesting:

The biggest J.D. Power success story among Chrysler Group brands is Jeep, which was looking fairly unimpressive in 26th place overall, with 146 problems per 100 vehicles in 2003, and now places above the Chrysler brand in 16th position with 120 problems per 100 vehicles.

Some Diesel News:


BMW: The X5 SUV will get a diesel in the 2007 model year.

Chrysler group: A new diesel-powered version of the Jeep Liberty is selling above expectations. DaimlerChrysler is considering diesels for the Chrysler 300 sedan and Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Ford Motor Co.: Ford has formed a North American diesel team that is integrating diesels into cars and trucks. The Ford F-150 pickup and Focus sedan are candidates for a diesel.

General Motors: Charles Freese, GM's head of diesel engineering, says light trucks and SUVs will be the focus of the company's diesel efforts. Meanwhile, GM is limited in the number of Duramax V-8 truck diesels it can build at its capacity-constrained Moraine, Ohio, engine plant. GM could source smaller displacement diesels from Europe.

Honda: A diesel Accord is being considered for North America.

Nissan: The Titan pickup is a strong candidate for a diesel, either from a U.S. engine source, such as International Truck and Engine Corp., or from Japan.

Toyota: The Tundra pickup is considered a likely candidate for a diesel. Toyota's diesel plans should be clearer once production starts at its San Antonio truck plant next spring

Diesel will be the great equalizer for Jeep

I told you guys Hummer & that FJ Cruiser are going to steal away customers.

I have never seen so many feedback posts. Mike, this site rocks, maybe you should add a forum.

My Cherokee is now 6 years old, still looks and runs like it did the day I drove it home. I don't see me getting something different until at least 2009 or 10. By that time the next Wrangler will be a couple of years into its model run and the new vehicle bugs will be worked out. At that point I am sure Jeep will still offer some rugged 4x4's to chose from. Of course by then I will be 56 or 57 years old, and if I keep that one as long as I plan on keeping the XJ it mite be the last vehicle I ever purchase. As for Jeep making more car like vehicles in the coming years I am not to worried about it, as long as they still make the capable ones. Of course if I were younger it mite bother me a lttle more.

I think SUV's are way past being trendy. It would be like calling station wagons trendy during the last decade. Some people still have large families and since they don't make a full size station wagon anymore a 7 passenger SUV is about the only thing comparable, if you don't want a mini-van (YUK!)

Sorry, no knock on people from suburbs, just those they buy an SUV because it's trendy and not because they actually could use one.

"Has anybody check out the Commander video?
I like the looks of it on and off road. Any thoughts?"

Jon, I thought it looked better than it did in the pictures I have seen. Still too big for me but for what it is, I think it looks great. What I wonder though, what do Cherokee lovers think of it, since that was obviously the design inspiration for the Commander. They are trying to draw in those buyers who longed for that look. Did it work?

New Jeep Commander video from www.motortrend.com.

http://preautoshow.primediaautomotive.com/video/41/

yawn....maybe Mikes on vacation.
Jeep Commander pricing yet???
Any new Wrangler spy photos???

If they don't build the Gladiator their missing the boat AGAIN! Jeep will have great line of 4X4
vehicles and SUV's,But they need a TRUCK! in lineup ASAP! All the new entries are good,but they
need the Gladiator to draw the Truck buyers to Dealerships. They are talking 2008 from what I've read on this. 2007 or sooner would be much better,they are losing sales they could be getting
at present. Dumb! Build the DAM! TRUCK!

GIT'R DONE!

This is just my opinion, and as a current kj driver I know it's strange for me to say this .... but the Toyota fj concept is bubbly and ugly. Beedy-eyed headlights, no grill, and when I see it, I don't think of off-road ruggedness, I think of someone in a suburb saying, "Hey, check out my trendy 4-WD Toyota Beetle or Mini". Maybe it's the white top, I don't know. TJ just looks and is genuinely more rugged. Of course there are people out there that will go for the FJ, but I'm not one of them.

I definitely like the Commander. I am not so sure the "bolt-on fender" look suits the vehicle but other than that, it looks great.

I know its boxy appearance is going to offend some people, but being a Cherokee owner I know the boxy shape also allows for better cargo utilization and better outward visiblity.

I had been considering a Grand Cherokee as my next vehicle but after watching the video I am pretty sure I will go with the Commander instead.

I loved the look of the Cherokee XJ when we owned one. But it was just too small for my family needs so we bought a Grand Cherokee. Perfect size but miss the old school Jeep look. The Commander will fit the bill for us. I like the fact that the base model will be similiar to the Grand Cherokee's also as I don't need nor can I afford a $40,000 vehicle but one in the upper 20's or low 30's is where I can be. Don't need all the options either, just a sunroof and make it Trail Rated and I am happy.

There are over 100 post now.
Mike, get us something new so the SFA vs IFS debate won't get fueled up again.
What's everyone think about the weather were having?

I made a mistake on the second link listed for the Defender photos. The easiest way is just to change the 11 in the link to a 10 to bring up the second photo. Sorry for the mistake. I look forward to seeing what the comments are on this concept vehicle.

The Kj is larger in overall dimensions especially height. But the interior in my XJ is more useable. Jeep just moved cubic feet from the cargo area to the headroom. I almost traded in my XJ for a
D liberty. The the cargo space is what stopped it. After seeing the commander, I will wait for a diesel commander hopefully in 2006 or 2007!

Responding to the post made made by Hummer....just because a vehicle has IFS does not mean that it it not a true offroader. I will agree that in the past solid axles were much more condusive to offroading and much stronger but that is not all together holding true anymore. New technolgy and design is giving some IFS just as much strength and articulation as your typical solid axle. It's sort of like when muscle cars lost normal asperation and the 4 barrels. Fuel injection just didn't cut it but we all know that that is no longer the case.

Solid axles without question are more reliable and will be cheaper to maintain over the long run. If a vehicle is intended mainly for serious offroad use and by designed is not meant to offer much on road consideration (the Wrangler) then I can see no good reason to change it to IFS. IFS should only be used on vehicles such as the GC and Commander which by design are meant to offer luxury and a very good on road ride as well as offroad capability. I just don't see the new Toyota FJ that much of a challenge for Jeep. It's too early to tell but I seriously doubt that the FJ will be offering the offroad performance of the Wrangler Rubicon and a few thousand dollars just won't make that much difference with vehicles that target severe offroad application.

Why are we talking about the H3...that is the ugliest piece of
%&$#. The H2 has brace ones. The interior has some needed
finishes but that H3 is just an ugly vehicle.

The KJ is actually larger then the XJ. The KJ's wheelbase is 104" and I believe the XJ's is 101" It is just the rounded styling and curves that make the KJ look smaller than it actually is. Just compare the specs, or park them side by side and you will see the KJ is actually considerably larger. Taller, longer and wider.

I am sure when Pete mentioned a Jeep "sportscar" he was talking about something closer to the Jeepster concept or the Compass concept, not the traditional type of sportscar (Corvette, etc). I too want something sporty, just not a sportscar. A Jeep dunebuggy, or a rally inspired Jeep, as it were. And no, that doesnt mean I want to tackle the Paris-Dakar race. ;-)

Hey, there is updated Jeep news on the home page, hurray, lets put this post to bed. :-P

I do think the Commander looks better on/off road moving rather than in all these showroom floor type pictures we've been seeing. Seems bigger to me for some reason too. Looks can be still be deceiving and would like to see one in person sometime.

I think I'm with Manual XJ on this one for once that Jeep should not have a sports car. I'm pro compass IF it's done right. Not a chance in hell that I'd be okay with a jeep sports car, although I think Pete was still referring to a rally car type Jeep.

When I think sports car I think low to the ground, rear-WD, and bucket seats that have got you feeling like you're sitting on the road. Not that there is anything wrong with a sports car, but those qualities are just not Jeep. At least with a true rally car you could give a Jeep edge to that kind of off-road racing or dune hopping. Then again, from these spy shots this is no sand dune hopper.

I'm worry Jeep isn't going about this they way I'd like. I'm thinking Compass won't be a rally car, but more of a "crossover" which is a term that's been tossed around. As long as they get sales and use that money to improve and continue to develope great off-road Jeeps, I guess it's okay. I would just prefer one of these new jeeps at least be something close to the Compass concept. Something squat, sporty, and able to cut corners, but also off the gound for off road use. A Jeep dune buggy???

Am plenty chill, Manual XJ Guy, and like I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's just that usually when you express yours, you include a snarky remark or jab at any Jeep lover that doesnt feel the same as you. That dead horse needs no further beating, thank you. :-)

All is good though.

And the lenghth of this post makes me wish Mike had a forum on this puppy. Especially since the Jeep lineup is expanding in the coming years. More and more people will want to discuss Jeeps and although there are other Jeep forums, I would love to stay "in-house" here on Mike's site.

Speaking of getting really old this post is dragging on forever...

Im not out to tick people off (or bore you to death either with my old comments) but like everyone else I have some opinions and I generally accept that people have thier own too.

Just don't like being blasted by somebody making accusations that my jeep is actually a bunch of Ford and Chevy parts and any opinions that I have don't count. There are lots of so called "hard core" jeep fans here and you can't just start discrediting them... and especially not because they actually use thier Jeep for off-roading.

If people come on and express thier support for whatever car, sure great. I don't want to come onto a posting that everybody thinks the same thing.

So chill Mr. C, its all good. You've got valid points... so what if my opinion might be that you would enjoy a Subaru because its faster and has a longer herita... eh em... (I'll avoid another rant) its just a harmless opinion :)

This train is so long, I forgot what started it. Compass? Oh yeah. Might buy one for my daughter to start her on a great American brand. I can well afford a Land Rover, but I'm aiming for a Commander next. Hope they stick a diesel in it but I probably can't wait that long. Walt, haven't heard from you for awhile, so I'll say it. Build the Gladiator!

"So like I said before, if you want a sports car or a rally car (so you can go race Dakar Im guessing) go buy a Subaru or a Honda."

How about you buy what you want and let us buy what we want? You are entitled to your opinion on what it means to be a Jeep, but everyone else gets to have an opinion too. See how that works? So how about dropping the "go buy a Subaru" argument for awhile? It's getting real old.

I would bet the defender would run 35k or more, they still make the defender 90 and 110, it's just not for sale in the US. When you convert it's price in pounds to dollars, it works out to about 35k or so. I wouldn't see them dropping the price, they have a brand image to maintain, if nothing else.

I for one would love to own a jeep rally-style car. I don't think it's selling out for jeep to move into that market at all, if anything it's just as hardcore as the offroad market. What they learn from rally car engineering can make improvements in their other lines.

It's great that jeeps still rule the offroad world. As long as the wrangler keeps that up, jeep isn't selling out. The more profit they make, the more they have for research and development. The world isn't going to end because jeep makes a couple of cars with broad appeal, just like the world didn't end when they put coil springs in place of leaf springs on wranglers. Think how many purists were horrified when they heard that news back when the TJ was being introduced. "Real Jeeps have leafs springs" was the cry, and look how well the TJ suspension has been for offroading.

I love the guys that are hard core jeeps guys and complain about the liberty. These are the same guys running a chevy 350, a ford 9" rear end, and a front axle out of a scout complaining about the dillution of the jeep brand. Give me a break.

If jeep makes the gladiator, or a car that competes with the evo's and sti's, or drops the deisel in the wrangler unlimited (or whatever replaces it), they would earn my business. I like sports cars, and it would rock to be able to buy one from jeep.

My .02

Great News Site!

Cool video. Looks like my next Jeep!

*****More Breaking News********


It was announced today:


That the world is flat.


Full Story at 11.


*****This was Breaking news*****

square headlights, you bring up a great point. Jeep should have a "Rubicon" edition for every model they produce, similar to the way Chevy's "Z" packages span their different vehicles. It would mean different things for different vehicles (ie you wouldn't necessarily see lockers on the Commander but hey, I wouldn't complain). I really miss the Up-Country group that was offered a while back and this would be an excellent way to bring it back, possibly marrying it with the Renegade and Overland body packages. Would also be a great way for Jeep to keep their image as a producer of "severe off road use" vehicles.

Hey what about any new Xk commander info- diesel, rubicon edition?

That is certainly a fact. I certainly havn't posted so many times on one subject. Obviously this is a very hot topis and I guess it should be. Jeep is definately moving into a whole new era for themselves. Some like it a some don't but it is to be anyway so either way we have to live with it. I, myself, don't mind expansion. I love originality. Jeep certainly maintains that in their vehicles and I hope that these new vehicles continue that. No...these are not really new vehicle concepts but if Jeep can put their spin on them then they certainly have the ability to turn out well.

Your right Manual XJ Guy concerning Land Rover pricing. I will be very surprised if the new Defender comes in under $35k.

Thanks for the posting on the Land Rovers,
I have to say I saw an LR3 up close yesterday and it is a pretty sweet looking machine. But still too way expensive to hurt Jeep sales. I agree, if they lanch the Defender and it hits the 20,000 to 30,000$ it will be a tough competitor. However I have heard speculation that it might be starting around 35,000$ in which case its pushing that upper limit of what off-roaders are willing to pay... unless they are rich and want to trade thier H2 in for a real 4x4.

Yeah come on, has anybody scored some better pictures of the new TK yet? This post is starting to get a little long.

Well if you don't know what IFS is... you will when they tell you your the cost of repair next time you break off one of those CV's.. then your going to be wishing you clued in ahead of time and picked something out with a SFA

Just a comment, but anybody who tells you that IFS is easier to repair or a more durable system is out to lunch. Sorry guys, but thats a fact.

Much interesting reading and speculation, but Jeep must remain competitive and making lighter more fuel efficient vehicles is necessary. The world fuel supply is already being stretched and fuel costs will continue to rise. So, these vehicles are to be expected. The Wrangler will remain SFA because it's lighter and easier and less costly to mod. Jeep gets enormous returns and free advertising from the general public seeing modded Wranglers.

BIGDADDY you are exactly right! I've been saying that ALL Along. My 3 Jeeps were all bought USED and have performed better than my previous 5 GenMotors vehicles that I purchased NEW!

My family owns 2 new Jeeps ('04 GC,Liberty) and they still think my Old School Jeeps are better.

The $$$ you save on USED can be put for mods to chassis,motor paint, or whatever else you dream up.

I believe that as Jeep builds a bone for every "dog"..it will only HELP the residual value of the "oldies" at least hold, if not increase. Yep, your CJ YJ XJ ZJ's will all become MORE of a collector's item just because of their affordability and ease of repair.

As some pro-futurists already chastised me about- OOJ ain't in the market for a new Jeep anyway; and they're right!

Jeep Owner,
I would bet that your figures are not far off but there is another point. I can't say that it really makes sense but never the less it still holds true. There are plenty of SUV's out there that would do fine in most situations that most SUV drivers would find themselves in. The point is that some SUV owners (namely Jeep and Land Rover owners)want to know that their SUV can take them anywhere they want to go and handle almost any offroad situation even though it is highly unprobable that they will ever do any serious offroading. As long as some people want that capability, and I suppose I am one of those few, someone is going to have to provide these highly capable SUV's. Jeep and Land Rover have seemed to want to be the ones making these SUV's, whether that capability is ever used or not. It's sort of like Porsche, Corvette, Ferrari, and others. At least in the US, it's not only unlikely that an owner will fully use the capabilities of these vehicles but it's also illegal. Still..we have them and demand them.

I understand that those photos of the TK were probably done with a photoshop program, however, I would be willing to bet that the production TK will look very very close to that photo.

Finally an American car that hopfully will have some styled engineering. I was hoping that jeep would go ahead with the Compass. Please try to keep the production model like the concept built prototype.

DC, you are killing me.

I think you may have it right RUBICONTRAIL.NET. It seems odd to just drop KJ with a KK platform planned. Hopefully the new TK will keep to the basics without to many frills, in effect keeping the cost of TK down. Then you have KK to have creature comforts and off-road qualities. Stepping down in price would get you KK size with AWD traction but not so much of the off-road, and then you're base/smaller compass would round out the bottom.

"The MK49 will have awd, sporty styling with a wagon silhouette
that is low to the ground. While the MK49 is expected to be
targeted at Forester buyers."

MK49 will be the Compass concept we saw in 2002.

"The MK74 will have a taller roofline so it looks more like an
SUV, and the wheelbase is expected to be slightly longer. The
MK74 will be aimed at Ford Escape, Honda
-V and Toyota
RAV4 buyers."

MK74 will be the Varsity concept we saw in 2000.

The spy photos of the "compass" that AutoWeek posted really is
the Varsity. They look more like the Varsity then the Compass
concept.

DMoore, Yes..there's nothing as familiar as a boxy Wrangler or CJ except for the '68-'82 Corvette; another American Icon; I agree.

OnlyOneJeep,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your YJ or liking it or it even being your favorite Jeep made. I think that all some of us are asking is not to shut the door on newer models, their capabilities, and what they offer. I think just about every Jeep that has been produced has contributed to Jeep heritage and even though some of those vehicles may not have been as capable as others, they still offer something really special. Take for instance a 1982 Corvette. There is no way you can compare the ability or build of the 1982 Corvette to the present model. The new models are better in every aspect. That said, and it's just my opinion, there has never been a Corvette that looked any better than the coke bottle curve Corvette and I love them more than any model that was or has been made. Same goes with Jeep. I still love the Grand Wagoneer and no matter how far Jeep progresses, I still love that Jeep although I know it may not offer the best in ability and function that Jeep has produced. I still hope that one day I will be able to grab one and completely restore it. The point is...every Jeep has something to contribute and as long as future Jeeps offer quality and deliver the capability that that certain vehicle is intended to perform, then I welcome the new as well as loving the old.

Well I hope your right Carter, it would be really nice if it works out that way.
I have a bad feeling this is just a taste of the watering down of the brand coming in the future.

As for Jon, you must have stocks or something in DC to be that definsive on how much they make :) I get your drift they need to increase revenues... but Sometimes its not about money, its about watching a company you've loyally bought vehicals from change its image from 4x4's to grocery getters.

Anyway, like Carter said. If they need the revenue that bad and building grocery getters is the way then all the power to them. Probably they will always produce 1 real 4x4 to retain whats left of that image, but it will be expensive and more of a novelty rather than an affordable off-roading vehical.

I would rather they take the path and produce new exciting vehicals like that Willies concept & the Rescue. But thats my opinion, I keep forgeting people want the Jeep Calabur... I mean Compass and AWD mini-vans these days. Go mini-van go!

"While the MK49 is expected to be targeted at Forester buyers, the MK74 will be aimed at Ford Escape, Honda C R-V and Toyota RAV4 buyers."
Umm honestly wasn't that the Jeep Liberty and it failed. Rode too rough and got horrible fuel economy. Jeep tried to make a vehicle to compete in that market, but wanted to add a little bit of offroad capability. In the end all they really created was an overweight bulky cute-ute.

"Both vehicles are the first Jeeps not engineered for severe off-road use."
Did I hear that when the KJ was first being designed that the engineers themselves said it was not really designed for severe off-road use. That is why they originally were going to keep the XJ around.

Which all leads back to my point that the KJ was originally designed to compete it then Escape, RAV4, C R-V market. They wanted to add a tad bit of capability to make it marketable over the other cute-uts. And in the end we have an overweight, ugly jeep that is basically a failure. No a good offroader, and too heavy, rough and poor fuel economy to compete in the cute-ute market.

So I can seem them canning the KJ relatively soon. They we be releasing 2 vehicle to compete in the cute-ute market, while having a 4 door wrangler for people that need more room and want a real Jeep.

"""Both vehicles are the first Jeeps not engineered for severe off-road use.""

Big mistake on DCX's part here.

The name Jeep was originally coined to refer to a vehicle engineered for severe off road use.

The Liberty was as watered down as Jeep should have gone, it may have been badly done, but there was at least still an attempt to engineer the Liberty for severe offroad use.

Bring back the Eagle nameplate for these AWD cars, advertise them as having been "built by the offroad experts at Jeep" or something similar.

DCX would do a lot better by Jeep if they would listen to the customers who actually buy them, ie. put a diesel in the Wrangler and build a diesel Gladiator & Dakar.

Wait, I thought the YJ was first Jeep that wasn't engineered for serious off roading ( sorry had to get my jab in on OnlyOneJeep since to him the YJ is the end all be all of Jeep )! My biggest concern with this expansion is the platform sharing with Dodge. These will be the first non-Jeep designed Jeeps. The thing that has always made a Jeep a better SUV is that they have been designed by Jeep engineers to be SUVs, not a mutation of a truck or a car. That is what has given Jeeps the perfect balance of off road capability, with improving on road performance. I have fully supported Jeep on all of their recent moves including the KJ and the WK which others a blasted, but at least they are Jeeps, not a mutant Dodge/Mitsubishi. However, with the cost of building a true off road Jeep like the TK going up, Jeep needs something for the entry level. While I'm not sure this is the answer, it is better than them building a watered and stripped down version of the flagship Wrangler to be the entry level. The Wrangler is what defines the Jeep brand, everything else is just there to make money.

Okay, then maybe mini-vans aren't trendy enough;-)

I know I got a bit general in my comment, but I was talking in particular to the FJ, and it's certainly no 7 passanger SUV. I will say the interior looks rugged and bare-bones enough, and that I have also not seen it in person and really can't get a good feel for its size. Reguardless, as long as DCX doesn't screw up the TK, I'll be looking for a used 4dr or Gladiator in about 2010, not an FJ.

If Jeep seriously wants to compete with Subaru and other cute-utes, they've got to do something to increase fuel economy -- high 20s and low 30s are the only thing that will compete.

I don't care if they make them or not. I've still got my XJ. When it's time to send it to the scrapyard, I'll pray that there is a Gladiator available.

All this talk of car-like Jeeps and IFS and selling out just hurts my head. Can't we just be glad that there's a huge used Jeep market out there.....so we'll never have to buy any of Jeep's new models ever again?

I think we fail to recognize a bit of a point. I am willing to bet 95% of Jeeps never see more than a dirt or fire road. Only 25% of Jeeps that actually see more than a dirt road could benefit from a SFA. So that makes somewhere around 98-99% of Jeep owners it doesn't make a difference. Also, I'm willing to bet that probably 90% of Jeep owners don't even know the difference between SFA and IFS. Since when has it been a smart business move to cater to 1-2% of your customers.

Manual XJ Guy,

Here are a few links to some pictures of the new Defender concept. Yep...you will probably drool.

www.landroverworld.org/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/11/cat/502/page/1

www.landroverworld.org/pictures.showphoto.php/photo/10/cat/502/page/1

I don't have any infor on build specifics but it looks quite Land Rover. If they are anywhere close to the looks it should be very nice indeed.

That is a well known photoshop of the Rescue, Manual
XJ Guy. Somewhere on the web I saw the sequence of
steps where they proved it. However, it is no secret that
many people believe that the new wrangler will favor
the Rescue in appearance. So that is as good a guess
as any.

I was digging around for some new spy shots and came accross this picture of what "they think" the new TK will look like. Its pretty interesting....


http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/23/JEEP-Wrangler_450.jpg

"Here is a rendition (no it is not an actual picture so refrain from making comments that assume it is) of what AMS believes the next Wrangler will look like."

That new defender you are talking about has nothing but sketches at the moment. I havn't seen anything concrete other than a general announcement that it might be coming to North America. Is there even Pricing or spy shots?

Continuation......Neither Hummer or Toyota, at this point or the near future, are anywhere near taking Jeeps market in any catagory. If you want to know where the real threat is....take a look at Land Rover. Yes..the Ranger Rover is very expensive which takes it out of Jeeps price range but the new LR3 actually offers more than the Range Rover and is priced very close to where the Grand Cherokee is and where the Commander will be. You can also bet that the Defender will be priced, at least in some model ranges, to take some Jeep buyers away. You can bet this....the Defender will be a solid threat and if Jeep, at least Wrangler, gets beat then that is where the heat will come from. Land Rover has always had the same problem as Jeep. They offer extreme offroad capabilty but have fallen behind in the on road ride and reliabilty areas. They, like Jeep, are improving greatly. If Jeep looses the name of best SUV and true offroad vehicle it won't be from the likes of Toyota or Hummer. It will be Land Rover.

I've got nothing personally against IFS, but it gets more expensive to maintain when the vehical gets older and can generally can't take as much abuse.(please correct me if Im wrong on this)


The FJ cruiser is going to kill Jeep with an entry level price of 20,000$...
Come on, it looks more aggresive and with Toyota's good name its sure to be a hit. I believe it even has an option of 33" (over its stock 31's) and a manual 6 spd tranny. Keep in mind that for the same price you'd end up with a Compass from Jeep... that can't even go off-road with that.

The Hummer H3 is more likely to steal away future grand Cherokee and Liberty buyers, it's entering the market for 30,000$ and with the kind of Novelty it brings (be it ugly or not) its bound to gobble up a fair chunk of that market.


Anyway I think Jeep is in for some rought times ahead. If you don't think people will go buy those two cars instead of Jeep... just remember I didn't think anybody would like or even consider the Compass or Varsity...

With over 80% of the Heavy Duty 4X4 or AWD Trucks, Mixers, Haulers;etc, it's overly obvious what the most RELIABLE system is:

Solid Front Axles/Leaf Springs

These movers are made to do hard service for 25/40 years!

With a level of technology dating back to the Earliest days of the beginning of the "work-mule"!

Jeep followed this recipe for many years (almost 60) and I believe too; that the essential Jeeps (Wrangler TK, Gladiator) MUST be equipped and/or at least optioned to include SFA.

It would be almost heresy for Jeep NOT to have it!

It's DURABILITY is PROVEN; and its cost to produce is still quite economical; not to mention the ease of repair for us Jeepers.

Just a quick thought..........

There is a poll about the new vehicles at:

http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60647

Gotcha Hummer...my mistake...I misunderstood.

DMoore: That actually was part of my point, the same people who complain about IFS and rebadging killing Jeep are the same people who think the H2/3 or FJ is going to take Jeep's business. When in fact the H2/3 are just rebadged Chevy's and all of them are IFS.

I will admit that dedicated offroaders such as the Wrangler and Defender should keep solid axles but I see no problem at all with properly designed IFS on vehicles such as the Liberty, Grand Cherokee, and Commander.

So the new KK will be getting closer in size to the Grand Cherokee maybe?

This is from the press release of the Nitro.

"the Nitro's wheelbase has been stretched 4.o inches, and the vehicle is 4.4 inches longer overall."

It sound like the KK platform (Liberty and Nitro) is going to grow a little in size. I don't know what the current Liberty wheelbase is now but if it is going to grow by 4" it has to be getting closer to the size of the XJ. And looking at the Nitro concept and that fact that it is pretty boxy I will bet that the new Liberty will take styling cues from the upcoming Commander. The new Liberty could just as well be the answer to the classic Cherokee XJ in size and cost. Just a thought.

Hummer and Toyota are no threat at all to Jeep. At least not at this time or the near future. The new Toyota FJ doesn't appear to be that ground breaking and is only an attempt by Toyota to come up with something that can be considered a real offroader. Something that Toyota has let slip away over the years. Toyota was faced with the same battle as everyone else with consumers wanting better on road SUV's and although the Landcruiser is still a great vehicle, Toyota has taken away alot of it's spunk. Toyota is way behind Jeep in the curve but we all know that if they really decided to get into the game that they certainly have the ability to be a threat. Land Rover is already expanding and I think everyone expected Ford to totally screw them up but just like with Jaguar they haven't. The LR3 was pretty much expected to be an Explorer with a Land Rover badge but that is very far from the case. As stated before, the new Defender will be here in a couple of years and although we haven't seen too much from that new project, you can expect it to put up a real fight. Especially since the military world is looking to start replacing vehicles and the Defender has always been a big part of that. Subaru owners will be a hard nut to crack but the only real hit that Subaru has is reliabilty. Jeep should have no problem at all in beating them in design and function but if Jeep can't at least match the reliabilty of Subaru then they are going to have a very tough time stealing their consumers. These posts about mini vans and stuff is way off the subject. That's nothing but panic talk and has nothing to do with reality. Although they have done some things that I haven't agreed with, Jeep is not dumb. I'm sure they can clearly see the expanded SUV line up with the likes of Toyota. Those SUV's offer different models for size and price but really don't differ much in the capability area. Like I already said, Jeep is in the position to offer SUV's that cross every market catagory including price, size, on road capabilty, and true offroad capabilty. Again....no other manufacturer is currently in the postion to do this. This certainly doesn't mean that a few other manufacturers don't have the ability to do it though. The likes of Land Rover and Toyota will be in the hunt. And even though I am not very impressed with Hummer, they have already proven a willingness to design and build new vehicles quickly and experiment with the market. If they don't go broke first, they too have the ability to hit on something that could work. Jeep is certainly winning this battle but the war is far from over.

It appears, at least with the information that we have so far, that RUBICONTRAIL.NET is totally correct. If this holds to be true then Jeep won't only have the SUV market covered but totally saturated. Jeep will end up being the only manufacturer in the automotive market that truely offers an SUV for every price range, size, and offroad/on road capability. If Jeep goes forward with this plan and each of these vehicles proves to be very reliable, then all Jeep will have to do is market their vehicles well and get non-Jeepers from such as the Subaru, Toyota, etc., catagory to give them a try. If all this is done right, which I will admit is a big IF, then Jeep could find themselves in a position in the SUV market that others have only dreamed of. Jeep's ability to make true offroaders is unquestionable. The new KJ and WK have proven that Jeep can also add very good on road dynamics to offroadability. All Jeep has to do now is prove reliablilty and I think the KJ has proven to be a very good start to that subject. If they get these three things down then Jeep will unquestionably be king.....and king in every segment of the SUV market.

While I would love to see the production Compass look just like the Compass, I still think the shyshots from last week are of the production version Compass. Yes it looks taller but it still looks close. I just don't see Jeep's two entry level Jeeps looking that alike. Yes the spyshots show a taller 4 door but the general shape is the same, the shoulders over the rear wheels still looks the same, the flairs in front seem the same. That said, does that mean the other Jeep is even taller and fatter? My hope now is they simply did a very good job of camouflage or that the pictures are just deceiving and the production Compass is not as tall as it looks in the photo.

Interesting that only a few design tweaks one way or another can alther whether you think a vehicle looks good or bad. Eye of the beholder I suppose. I will withhold judgement on the Compass till I see it.

So do you agree with me that MK49 will be the compass and that
the MK74 will be the Varsity????

This was the press release for the Compass in 2002

The Jeep® Compass, in its world premiere at the 2002 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, is a concept that feels at home in an urban environment while possessing the free spirit of a performance rally car. Inspired by the 1998 Jeep Jeepster concept and built on a Jeep Liberty platform, Compass also offers a great combination of on-road dynamics and off-highway capability. Aptly named Compass, this latest Jeep concept will be pointing consumers in its segment toward tomorrow.

I currently drive a KJ and I used to drive an XJ back in the 90s (before they were horribly out-dated). My KJ with the 3.7L is getting better milage than my XJ with the 4.0L got, rides much smoother than my XJ, handles much better and goes on all of the same trails as my XJ did. I certainly don't consider it a flop. I spoke with some of the Jeep engineers at Camp Jeep 2003 about the KJ, and they weren't embarrassed at all, in fact they were telling me that they had driven them on the Rubicon, stock, without any major mechanical failures. Most people who don't like the Liberty, do so becasue, a) they own an XJ and are sad to see it go; b) they don't like the rounded styling or the hood; c) they don't like IFS no matter what or d) all of the above.

You are all right. The KJ fails completely in both categories.

Top-heavy, bulky, rough-riding, gas-guzzling, sluggish cute-ute.

As far as offroad well we all know how that goes. Someone will point to the lostkj site of course. I will admit that most soft-roader would not be able to do what they do. HOWEVER, just read a bit on that site. All those KJs are modified. Lifted, locked, running MTRs and winches. Now HONESTLY look at the stuff they do, it is nothing a stock XJ couldn't do. So in short you have to lift, lock, throw mud tires on and need a winch to go where a stock XJ could go. Perform all those mods to an XJ and you will drive over a KJ.

As far as sales. Jeep keeps cutting the cost on the KJ and offering all kind of rebates, just to get them to sell. They only reason they sell is because they are dirt cheap. But in all honesty you get what you pay for. Got get a RAV-4 or C R-V they are ten times better vehicle for what you KJ owners want. Also, their is a reason those vintage 2001 XJs in mint condition still go for as much as a new KJ.

So yes the KJ is a complete FLOP. Even Jeep engineers admit it was a mistake and are embarrassed to say they worked on the KJ.

Which Diesel do you want in the Wrangler or Gladiator? 2.8 (Liberty)? 3.0 (Grand Cherokee-Europe)? 3.2(Mercedes)? 4.2 (Mercedes)?

If they build the Gladiator - Extended Cab? Crew cab? Both?

"Everybody knows what happens when people sell out for the money"
What the hell are you talking about. This is a major corporation that is in business to MAKE money not loose it. Yea, American Motors sold out when they let Chrysler buy them. They should of just went bankrupt instead of "selling out".
Some of you guys are just idiots and don't have a clue!

I, too, believe the Liberty was a flop as it is not really a rugged
off-roader (like the XJ), nor is it as civilized on the street, like a
Ford Escape or Toyota Highlander. It is really a 'tweener vehicle
that fails to be accomplished in any one particular category. For
the car-based SUV people, it is overweight, top-heavy, and
guzzles gas. As an off-roader/XJ replacement, well, we all know
the story....

Brand-Aid does bring up some good points others have ignored, the Jeep brand is not just about hard-core off roading. It has been marketed from the very beginning as a utility vehicle, a snow vehicle and a freedom/outdoor lifestyle vehicle. And the gas thing could be huge, it wouldn't hurt to have some non-guzzlers in the line up. I'm still not comfortable with the platform sharing, but we will see when they come out it Jeep is able to put its own unique stamp on the vehicle other than just a nameplate and 7-slot grille.

Many of the naysayers overlook one major
component of the modern Jeep brand: Jeep's
brand equity is as much about freedom,
escape and being one with nature as it is
extreme 4x4 capability. The soft-roaders fill
this end of the brand spectrum without
cheapening the integrity of the flagship
Wrangler.

For example: Perhaps I'm an outdoorsy guy
who kayaks and mountain bikes. The Liberty
has a really high roofrack height and, like the
Wrangler, limited cargo capacity. I don't travel
over anything tougher than a light two-track. An
AWD softroader will fit my lifestyle better, but
until now Subaru was my only real option.
Where a Jeep didn't fit before, the brand now
offers a vehicle I'd buy.

In addition, these new vehicles will likely offer
improved fuel economy - ensuring that if gas
prices really soar, Jeep won't screwed by a
heavy line-up of gas guzzlers.

That said, the Gladiator should be built, and

D's should be dropped into every engine
bay possible. Jeep can grow both ways.

For the record, Dodge only offers one SUV,
hard or soft: Durango.

Michael!!!! How dare you put a reasonable post on here!!!! :) Thanks for the back up and yes....we certainly seem to be the minority.

Why don't they brand and sell these as Dodge vehicals? Or a sub-brand.

Jeep Brand should be a 4x4 lineup, when you cheapen up on the drivetrains and take the 4x4 out of Jeep so you can target more trendy and "entry level" buyers it sells out the name.

And yes, that basically is selling out no matter how you try and justify it. And further more by selling out they are diluting the name.

Sorry Compass and Car lovers alike, but thats the straight goods. Everybody loves a rally car, but I just don't think Jeep should be pursuing that with thier brand on the line. One would think this should be left to Dodge to pursue instead.

Im not going to put down Jeep over it, its smart to pursue ways to maximize revenue and I can understand why they did it. If you look at all the tech companies sending out jobs to India its the same thing, smart ways to maximize revenues right:) Dosn't mean its the right thing to be doing.

The Liberty should be replaced by the new 4-door Wrangler. It doesn't sound as bad:

- Compass
- The new "Jeeparu"
- Wrangler
- 4-door Wrangler, to replace the Liberty
- Grand Cherokee
- (ugly) Commander

and maybe...
- Gladiator?

With the addition of the MK74 platform "Patriot" or "Scout" to
compete against other compact, car-based SUVs further
solidifies my belief that the Liberty will be leaving the Jeep line-
up in the very near future (2007/2008). The Liberty will then
silently morph into a Dodge in the form of "Nitro," as shown in
the Chicago Auto Show concept.

Manual XJ Guy, I think most of us are a bit skeptic and I get to thinking about the bomb Aztec was for Pontiac.

I don't worry quite so much yet about Hummer or Toyota though. I'm sure with the TK redesign coming up soon Jeep will remain a powerhouse in the off-road market. YJ and TJ had no problem running against GM's Tracker (which I admit Tracker was hardly competition to the Wrangler in performance and was more of a competitor in size and style). I imagine that FJ will post some good initial sales, but if not made as cable as the TK, will become the new Tracker.

And the FJ is a re-badged Toyota Tacoma/4-Runner/Land
Cruiser Prado/Lexus GX.

If the KJ and WK are not true off roaders because they have IFS, how can the Hummer and FJ be considered a threat? They have even less rugged suspension systems. Let's not forget that the H2 and H3 are just rebaged Chevy trucks, the same thing people are complaining about Jeep doing.

And when they have achieved that goal then they can introduce Jeep-minis and Jeep Minivans!! Soon Jeep Civics and Jeep Harleys!! Soon Jeep will launch a new OS system and drive Microsoft out. Whooo hooo hahhahahhaa Jeep can take over the world!

... Yeah forgive me if Im a little bit skeptic that Jeep is about to take over the entire "car" side of the SUV market away from long time kings like Subaru.

I really do share you enthusiasm, but they need to defend thier current title against upcoming challangers like the Hummer H3 and Toyota FJ cruiser.

The production entry level Jeeps will most likely not be the same as the concepts, Jeep doesn't usually move concepts to production, they just take different aspects of many concepts and incorporate them into a production vehicle, probably the Compass, Willys and Varsity in this case. In fact, I've heard rumors that the names will be Patriot and Scout, the latter being the boxier version. Both will come in 4 door versions as DCX doesn't see a need for many 2 door products. The concept Compass was based on the KJ platform, not this new platform, while the new Jeeps may look similar to the concepts, they will not be at all the same.

the back looks similar: the bumper and the tail lights and the
fact there is no tire and of course the varsity was a four door.

Varstiy was also published for oppision in the trademark office.

Although the varsity's back window is more slanted relative to
the spy shots.

I hope that they keep the body of the compass. It is a bit more
"fatter" in the back then the spy shots.

I agree, the spy shots look like the varsity not the compass. Be interesting if the Compass actually comes out the same as the concept

With the 4 doors I'm thinking the spy pics are not of the Compass and are likely the Varsity/Patriot. That's my guess have looked back at the Varsity pic.

Here are the pictures of the spy shoots along with the varsity
and compass concepts.

http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60581

Interesting

This was the press release for the Jeep Varsity back in 2000.

"DaimlerChrysler will unveil the Jeep® Varsity urban adventure concept, Sunday, January 9, 12 noon at the Chrysler stand at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. Jeep Varsity is a go-anywhere, do-anything concept that blurs the line between boulevard and boulder performance. "We once again challenged ourselves to invent a new vehicle category," said Tom Gale, Executive Vice President Product Development and Design. "The Varsity is as adventurous as the people who drive Jeep vehicles today -- whether in an urban environment or off-road."

The KK serves to fill the compact-SUV segment below the Grand Cherokee. The KK is way more off-road capable than the Patriot, Scout, Compass (whatever names are finally used) and offers a smoother ride and more creature comforts than the four-door Wrangler will. The Liberty works well with families, etc. while the Scout, Compass, etc. are more geared to younger people.

Of what purpose does the new Liberty "KK" serve with the
addition of the Scout/Patriot MK74 (about the same size as an
Escape/Highlander/
-V) soft-roader and the four-door
Wrangler off-roader?

Maybe "KK" is actually the code for the Dodge Nitro, which is to
be built at Toledo North.

Something else to add on the Compass ... if you check back with the autoweek pictures from awhile back you'll see that the second picture has a 7 slot grill and that the third picture has a dodge grill. They are very similar in shape, but the jeep does look a bit taller. Hopefully the two cars will not be exactally the same shape and have differences other than in the grill and nameplate.

XJ Owner

And rough-riding and sluggish??? That just tells me you've never driven a KJ. I have driven a right hand drive XJ, a YJ, and currently drive a KJ. All were nice and the KJ has the best ride and is not at all sluggish. The only problem I have with the YJ is space, and the XJ is the father in-laws mail jeep which is good to, but doesn't handle like my KJ.

XJ Owner,

You're comparing apples and oranges.
-V and Rav-4 have no V6, they are vans made to look like SUV's, get the same mpg as a van, and have a 4-wheel drive option that some vans have as well. They do not have the horsepower or torque of KJ and
-V/RAV4 have the towing capacity of a car. They are cute-utes, made for looks and all the same featurs of a mini-van minus the mini-van lable. I admit the styling of the KJ could have been a little better, but that helped Jeep hit that cute-ute market, hopefully these new Jeeps will hit that cute-ute market. This would leave Jeep the option of keeping KJ in the nitch of cute-ute appeal with real SUV/off-road abilities, or replacing KJ with a 4 door Wrangler while having these new jeeps hit the cute-ute market. Both of which are fine by me.

BUT ... KJ is no flop. Just because it is not the same as what you want or the same as a XJ doesn't mean KJ was a flop. KJ is not an XJ, but it is a good off-roader even without modifications and a great one with mods. Also to XJ Owner, the XJ stock tires were not any more special than what they use as stock on the KJ or even TJ for that matter. If you're thinking hard-core off-road you make modifications to any Jeep unless it's a Rubicon.

With how heavy KJ is I do think it's silly to have a 4cyl as an option now the the C.R.D. takes care of the mpg issues without loss of power. My guess is that like the article says, one of these new jeeps will directally target Rav4, Vue,
V and other 4cyl/mpg friendly utes.

So, with the upcoming "KK" platform, Jeep will then offer THREE
vehicles that share common platforms with Dodge (and
Mitsubishi):

Compass-->Dodge Caliber
Patriot/Scout -->Dodge Caliber
New Liberty?-->Dodge Nitro

Eagle, Eagle, Eagle ...

I welcome an entry level model/soft-roader as long as there's some form of AWD and outdoor life appeal. I've said it before and others here have said that this would fit well as an Eagle brand. Without Eagle, the best fit is Jeep. I do also hope that with a new entry level coming in that Jeep doesn't get to thinking they can just jack up the price on the new TK. If this Compass is sharing the platform with an entry Dodge, it had better have a similar price to an entry level Dodge.

KJ, a flop? Not even close. I don't consider Rav-4 or Escape a KJ competitor because off-road, they don't come close to touching the KJ. Soooo, it makes complete sense to me that the other new Jeep would compete in that market that jeep currently it not targeting directly. I do however admit that KJ gets some buyers out of this market, but only because KJ is the closest thing in size to a Escape.

Michael C. I must say I am very pleased with your voice of reason. This decision by Jeep IS a good one for the reasons listed before, and more. It will bring in many new customers who want a Jeep for their quality and reputation, but don't want to pay for "severe off road features." As long as they continue to produce even a couple of vehicles that still adhere to Jeep's heritage, the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler for example, I am fine with a complete line up that includes vehicles not designed for serious off-roading. Shoot, I might be able to get one of the new younglings into places a GC couldn't go depending on the terrain. However, the day Jeep ceases production of a serious off road vehicle will be the day Jeep has died.

I am curious as to why they aren't bringing back the Eagle name for these soft-roaders. It would bring back the days of Jeep/Eagle, when Eagle held its own with AWD wagons and such. You know they had to at least consider the idea - I'd love to know why they didn't go through with it.

As for all of you that are worried about these new additions diluting the brand - if you are driving down the street in your Jeep and would feel embarrassed to drive next to one of these new vehicles, then you are driving a Jeep for the wrong reasons. I know I love my Grand Am, even though the Aztec was the ugliest physical object ever conceived by mankind, and that brand had no business being in the SUV market anyway (along with most other brands out there - Porche for example).

I am excited to see these new vehicles and do hope that they meet Jeep's high standards

The KJ is slated for replacement for the 2008 model year. With the introduction of the second Jeep "car" mentioned in this article, along with the 4 door Wrangler and the fact that Dodge will intro the Nitro for model year 2006 or 2007, I find it odd that the Liberty platform would be replaced in 2008? This is the first I have heard of the Liberty platformed be replaced sooner than 2008.

Liberty question.
On another site is list all of the future products and their code names and production start dates. It says "Liberty KK July 06". Does anybody know why it would be KK and not KJ? Is the Liberty due for a new model as soon as next year? I wonder if it is related to the Nitro introduction.

Right on XJManualGuy!...If this is what the N'new" Jeep people want, they can have their MadeAfterTheTJWannabeJeep......

Real Jeepers KNOW what a Jeep is.

Real Jeepers KNOW what a Transfer Case is.

Real Jeepers KNOW what SFA is.

Real Jeepers KNOW that Their Jeep is Their Favorite Jeep.

Real Jeepers KNOW that Jeep will soon be History.


Some Real Jeepers don't have the Cajones to admit it.

OK I really don't get it, if your so for "soft-roaders" why arn't you a Dodge fan instead. Its not that different from Jeep? They have lots of "soft-roaders" for your enjoyment.

Ok, before you get too defensive...

Fact is you are here for the same reason the rest of us are. Jeep means Off-road, if you own a Jeep generally speaking your pretty damn proud of it. If your really that into Rally racing, go buy a Subaru.

See Im not trying to pick a fight or undermine your statements. It is true, Jeep is trying to increase its market share. But by doing that they devalue the meaning of Jeep. Will it pay off? Sure soft-roading fans will flock to Jeep because of the name.... here that, because of the Name, otherwise they would Flock to Dodge, or Subaru or some other brand that is into "Soft-Roading". Instead they flock here, well at least until the realization that its not a real 4x4 anymore sets in. Then Jeep will be just another brand of car, not so different from GM or Pontiac

See Im not "hard-core" or unopen to change. Just ticks me off when companies keep selling out and branding the consumers as mindless generic dollar signs. Generally speaking if your a Jeep fan, you have or enjoy the real 4 wheel drive experiance. What kind of Jeep fan enjoys driving an AWD minivan?????

Seriously, if Jeep goes ahead and builds these so called "Soft-roaders" what sets it apart from any GM brand or a Dodge? Like I said before I just don't get it, what the hell do you even want a Jeep brand soft-roader for? Go buy a Matrix or something, you'll get better gas milage anyway.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious but I think it's safe to say that every auto company since the inception of the automobile has been out to make money. I don't see where the type of vehicle made has anything to do with corporations or the lack of them. Where does Walmart come into play here? You may have the wrong forum. Also, Jeep is not a subdivision of Dodge...it's a subdivision of Chrysler...of which also Dodge is a subdivision. Again.....your getting way ahead of production here. Let's just see what Jeep puts out. They will make or break themselves. In either case, we will have to live with the outcome. One thing is for sure. Someone is going to step up to the plate and make capable offroaders. Hopefully it will be Jeep when all of the dust and speculation settles

Guys..I will totally agree that these news Jeep cars are not intented to be severe offroaders but I don't think it cheapens the brand to offer these vehicles. It's just plain good business sense. As long as this concept doesn't drift over to the likes of the GC, Wrangler, Commander, and Liberty, if that vehicle hangs around, then I don't see any problem at all. Actually I see it as better.As long as Jeep offers vehicles like these new cars to target softroaders and lower entry price seekers then Jeep has no reason to weaken the ability or the build of vehicles like the Wrangler. They can leave the Wrangler and others as very target specific vehicles without having to worry about certain customers not buying because of things like not such a great on road ride. Also, some of these new vehicles are actually better offroaders than we have seen in the past. Technology is a two sided sword though. Some of this new technolgy has made these vehicles better offroaders. Someof the specific technolgy on the Wrangler Rubicon is not necessarily new but we haven't seen it offered on out-of-the-box stock vehicles. I haven't had a chance to drive one myself but just about every offroad magazine is raving about the QuadraDrive II traction control sytem used on the GC. Contrary to some belief, even the Liberty is an excellent vehicle both on and offroad. I have one myself and have owned many Jeeps over the last 20 years and the Liberty is definately the best built Jeep I have ever owned. The Liberty is certainly no joke and with a few simple modifications it is probably just as capable offroad as most Jeep models that have been made bar a few Wrangler/CJ type models. Most have probably seen the site but for those of you who are doubters about the capabilities of the Liberty need to vist www.KJJEEPS.COM. Also, speaking purely concerning the abilities of new technology, take a look at the abilities of the Land Rover LR3 at www.UAE4X4.com and click on Scotland Videos about mid page to the right. There you will see the LR3 in action doing both water fording, rock crawling, and just general mud and sand. No....I'm not trying to advocate Land Rover over Jeep but the ability of that vehicle is obviously unquestionable.The problem that we run into is the same that runs across the board on all vehicles. Some technology is really proving to be a benefit both on and offroad, however, the repair of that equipment by the average owner is virtualy impossible. Yep...you could trash your CJ, YJ, most of the TJ, Series Rover, and Defender on the weekend and have it ready to go the following week. Those days are gone accept for the few that have hung on to the old ones. This is not a problem for me since I no longer do any really serious offroading but it certainly is a valid point for others. So...the end result...are todays offroaders useless? Not at all. There are a handfull that are very good. But keeping them going after warranty...well...that is a whole other problem.

See, no "Rally" inspired vehical.

They cleary state that one of the 2 will be competing against the Forester (so if I was to guess we should expect low ground clearance, AWD & at least 250hp).

The second will compete with Car-based SUV's like RAV-4, Escape and so on (I asume we are going to see slightly better ground clearance but an economy engine).

In any case the story also states they are not built for "Severe off roading" which means no low range transfer cases, IFS (RFS?) and a cheapened drivetrain.

Anyway, thats what I expect, purly speculation of course. Fact is that they are trying to cheapen the price to make it "entry level" so they took it out of the drivetrain.

Would be nice if they took that Compass concept and made it "Trail Rated". Big tires, adjustable height suspension, low range... but the name of the game is trendy and 4x4 look-alikes. From what I can tell they are "selling out" on the Jeep name.

Sorry if that comes off as a bit negitive, I really am trying to be bias but its just so damn hard!

Read this on allpar.com yesterday.

'KJ' is the current generation Liberty, which was refreshed for 2005 (but remains on the KJ platform)

The next generation, code-named 'KK', is set to start production late next year.

The next generation, 'KK', will also be the basis of the Dodge Nitro

Brand Aid and Carter; I agree. (I know, huh?)..Anyway, The KJ does serve some purpose I guess, and maybe I'm still mad that Bejjing Jeep gets to keep producing our beloved XJ Cherokee-while we in the states have to fight over buying the last vintage '01's.

Hopefully to balance out the "toughness" of the TJ/TK..GC and Commander...it is acceptable then to intro "soft-roaders".

Guess my YJ makes me a tough 'ol cookie- resistant to change; maybe I come across too rough; but like most here..I'm in love with my Jeeps...and kinda get defensive about "newbies" comin in and takin the glory...

Just like all the predessesors of TJ...We just feel it's always harder to make a Jeep better than our own.

Brand Aid is right..Jeep IS a form of USA Freedom and ruggedness that's all ours>

It's a Jeep Thing...That They Just Don't Understand!

The Liberty is not a failure. It's sales numbers prove that it is not a failure in the consumer arena. Photos from sites like lostkjwest.com are evidence that it is not a failure off-road. It also is NOT being phased out, it is due for a redesign in the next couple years.

For those interested in rock-crawling, we will see a new Wrangler that should as capable as the current generation. A four-door version will be available for those who need more space but don't want to sacrifice the off-road capabilites. A pickup version similar to the Gladiator concept may be possible a year or so after the Wrangler is introduced. The Wrangler will be pushed slightly upscale with the base model now being more similar to the current generation's X model.

For those who need a daily driver or a family hauler that can handle rough terrain / harsh weather, we will have three options in three size classes. These include the Liberty, the Grand Cherokee, and the Commander. DHS will be finally make it's debut in the next few months. This technology will give the Grand Cherokee and Commander better wheel travel by letting the sway bar float at low speeds.

For those looking for an entry level vehicle there will now apparently be two choices with the Compass and the Patriot / Scout. I still would not be surprised to see a rally-inspired trim level for the Compass (think Mitsubishi EVO vs. the stock Lancer).

Personally, I think Jeep is headed in the right direction if...
1.) they can produce a Wrangler that has classic good looks and at least the same off-road capabilites as the current generation.
2.) they continue to refine the Liberty, Grand Cherokee, and Commander to offer diesel power options, air suspension options, and perhaps some continued tweaks to the overall design. Like I have said before, in my opinion the WJ reached near perfection in 2004. The new generation tweaks to the Liberty design look better than the original design. The Grand Cherokee and Commander should see this continual refreshes to perfect their design.
3.) they do indeed produce a Wrangler-based truck like the Gladiator concept.


I would also love to see the Patriot / Scout be a boxy econo 4WD (at least offer a low-range upgrade option) with at least 8 or 10 inches of ground clearance. It could share the Caliber / Compass architecture to keep the costs down. It could include all the required safety features (*gasp* air bags) but minimal other goodies. I think this could satisfy the need for a simple no-frills Jeep.

Alot of the statements here about the KJ are true. It was a partial compromise to grab some of the softroader market but it was built a little to tough to really hit the most of the market that I think was intended. A failure...not at all. I see tons of KJ's where I live and it has been a big seller but it just doesn't grab some of the market that I think Jeep hoped it would. Read some of the tests and for what it's worth you will see many car magazines complaining about the Liberty being built a bit too rugged for it's intended market. I think what we see is very quick evolution here. These two new car based vehicles will grab more of the softroader market and Jeep already has vehicles such as the Wrangler that will handle more of the severe use. Honestly, I sort of hate to see the KJ go if it does. It really fit what my family was looking for but we are hardly the majority of the market. I clearly understand what Jeep is doing and although I like the Liberty I do see it as a little too far on the hard core side to do what Jeep wanted. I'm sure the 4 door Wrangler will replace what we were looking for.

There's no way around it, the KJ was/is a compromise
vehicle. Like any such compromise, it leaves both
parties feeling let down. Us XJ drivers are the ones you
hear from on this site because the the other side is
driving around in RAV-4's and
-V's and has no
personal stake in the conversation. You KJ owners are
the people who thought the compromise was worth it,
you are only a fraction (a significant one, though) of the
people who Jeep was hoping to attract.

So this is why I have to disagree with ManualXJ and
OOJ just this once.

By divorcing the true jeep and the cute-ute that the KJ
embodies, you will allow a real Jeep to be made (Dakar
aka 4-door wrangler) and you will expand the number
of people who buy jeeps AND you will make each of
them more satisfied with their decision. In short,
everyone wins.

This is just my take, and I am certainly sympathetic to
the so called "unreasonable" position that cheapening
the brand to make money in the short run is a bad idea.

I don't consider the KJ a flop at all, and the sales numbers don't show that either. It may not have been the next big thing that redefined a market like the XJ did, but that doesn't make it a flop. I drive a KJ as a daily driver, and like to take it on Jeep Jamboress and occaisional weekend trail rides. It performs very well for me at both of those tasks, no other product could have done that for me. I owned an XJ in the past and I didn't consider that an option because of the interior design, even with the redesign in 1997, it still didn't cut it for me. And none of the "soft-roaders" would meet my weekend off roading, since most don't even have a low range.

Wow, this is heating up into quite the hot topic. Seems a lot of people are on the Jeep 4x4 side and just as many on the Mini-Van side. And no I don't care about the couple of 2dr vehicals Jeep produced in the 50s... sorry but Jeep means 4x4 to me still.

Well Im not going to argue. Just state that Jeep is selling out. Everybody knows what happens when people sell out for the money, no need to go into details.

Take Jeep, strip the drivetrain out and sell it as a cheaper rebadged Jeep or Dodge. Yes, that is selling out. Sure makes great buisness, but ruins what you stand for.

I care what Jeep stands for, Like I said once before; go buy a Dodge and leave the Jeep brand alone. Not like Brand or what the product stands for matter to people who don't care about selling out. Its all about the bottom line right :)

Again, thats my opinion. Not trying to bash people. Guy has got to stand for something these days or what the hell are you doing here?

Anyway, I guess we can hope Jeep does at least a couple of vehicals right and learns from this mistake later on.

I don't own a Liberty but I don't believe I have ever read that its been a failure. I don't know if it has met the numbers they were hoping or not but to say they screwed it up and it failed is just a misinformed statement and wrong.

Now the Aztec........

Seems we're forgetting our history lesson here.

The first Jeeps that aren't designed for severe
off-road use?

What about the DJ-3A or the DJ-5 (not the postal
Jeeps just the 2WD Universal Jeeps).

Lest we omit the original Jeepster (VJ)?

They didn't dilute the brand or ruin it. And
these two sure as heck aren't the first two that
aren't designed for severe off-road use.

KJ,
I looked back at my source and it said Oct 06 for the KK. That would make it a 2007 model year, one year ahead of what was thought. Of course Oct 06 is the start of production with maybe the first one going on sale Jan 07 which could then make it a 2008 model. This is just a guess but I bet the new Liberty will be boxier and more Commander like. Just looking at the Nitro you can see the direction they are going. It's getting closer to our beloved XJ in style!

There's a simple fact of life here that some people are failing (or unwilling) to recognize. Evolution is good. If it weren't for evolution the only rock-crawling OnlyOneJeep and Manual XJ Guy would get to do is back into their cave. Let's face it, we all have to adapt to the changing environment and that includes business. Like my good friend Andy Dufrane said "Get busy living, or get busy dying." If Jeep doesn't evolve to include a very lucrative market, they'll be too busy dying to bother building anything. I say bring on the Compass. It will only serve to bring more people into the Jeep family, and yes more money for Jeep they wouldn't have otherwise. Jeep would not abandon its core products that have been its bread and butter for so many decades. Besides, why would I go buy a Slobaru POS when I could have Jeep Quality, Jeep Heritage, Jeep Pride? Many people lambasted the Grand Cherokee when it first debuted, but look at the solid following it has now. It just seems to make good sense to me.

I just don't have the desire to continue arguing the point, Manual XJ Guy (and others), so this will be my last post on this for/against issue.

Telling me to go by a Subaru instead just won't cut it. I will buy whatever I want just as you will. Gotta love America. Oh, and point out the numerous Dodge softroaders that you speak of for me to choose from. Seriously, go ahead and list them, I will wait.

As smart as you guys think you are, I will go with the professionals at Jeep on this issue. If they have studied the market conditions, the potential backlash, the pros and cons, the business case of each vehicle, etc, as I am sure they have, then that is good enough for me. Do you guys really think they are so stupid as to not consider the "heritage" issue? Don't you think that many of those in charge at Jeep love the Jeep as much as you or are you special? Those in charge understand that Jeep is the jewel in their crown, they do not want to mess it up. But not growing is just stupid.

Tell me this, assume Jeep decided to only produce true off roaders....where do you expect to acquire new buyers if the public is moving AWAY from true off road vehicles? Do you predict a major shift BACK to heavy duty off road vehicle buying from the public? Do you think there is a trend coming where vehicles get BIGGER and LESS road friendly? Forget what you wish in your heart, tell me if you think this is where we are moving. Please tell me you would not rather have Jeep just die rather than adapt would you? I know OnlyOneJeep would but would you? Do you really think that Jeep can maintain its necessary numbers without expanding, both up and down?

Eh, I will wait and see what Jeep gives us and you can all go cry in your beer about the injustices of the world. Just gets old and I am tired of all the pissing and moaning.

What will set Jeep apart is that they will have a full spectrum of automobiles that range from very mild car like to very serious offroad vehicles. That will still leave them alone and very set apart in the market. Check out Ford, GM, and Toyota. At least thus far they have a very wide range of SUV's, however, they really only differ in size and price and none of them are serious offroaders. They all have a line of vehicles that fit basically the same purpose. Jeep will have a line of vehicles also but "hopefully" that line will offer vehicles that have very different intended purposes and missions.

I know I am the minority here but I love the idea of two entry level Jeeps to choose from. DMoore has a good point, that by offering these Jeeps they can continue to offer niche vehicles like the Wrangler without the need to ever water it down to make it appeal to more buyers. Jeep must expand or die, there is just too much competition not to.

I know most of you wish they would just make serious off roaders and leave the soft roaders to Dodge or Chrysler. If they did that, Jeep would draw fewer and fewer buyers to it's lineup until it finally collapsed. They must keep the sales numbers up and if that means selling 90k softroaders a year, then that is a hard pill that diehard Jeepers will just have to swallow. Its a different world that Jeep must compete in now. Respecting Jeep heritage is one thing, but just coasting along for decades on that tradition without adapting to the times is quite another. Assuming what worked yesterday will work tomorrow is dangerous. The automotive world is moving away from serious off road capable vehicles, just be happy Jeep is still willing to make hardcore stuff like the Rubicon Wrangler. I think Jeep has been (and will be) offering lots of choices for diehards, don't begrudge others that don't need all the ability but still want a great handling and road friendly Jeep.

Besides, Jeep is not so fragile as to be tarnished by what some think as a lesser Jeep. These vehicles will bring more attention to Jeep and it's heritage, it will shine an even brighter light on the capability of the more able vehicles in Jeep's line up like the Wrangler. Buyers of the Compass may move up to the Wrangler or any of the more expensive Jeeps. Something they may never have done had they not owned an entry level Jeep. I just don't see this as a bad thing.

Yep I agree, they did it for the money
(good buisness sense)

outsourcing high paying North Americain jobs to India also makes good buisness sense.

Lip-syncing overnight stars make good buisness sense

All in one Motherboards make good buisness sense

Walmart driving out small buisnesses with below cost products makes excellent sense

Anybody see a pattern here? All of these things make good buisness sense. There has to be a line drawn on where good buisness sense becomes corperate greed. What do you stand for if you continously undermine your own values? Who wants to see Jeep as just another sub-division of Dodge?
I don't want to hear about the next station wagon coming out or the newest AWD van, I'd like to hear about the Hurricane or the Jeep Rescue. People get excited to see that kind of thing, am I reaching anyone here?

Good point HEMI.....so maybe progress is not so bad?

"Both vehicles are the first Jeeps not engineered for severe off-road use."

What was the old Jeepster from '48-51. They were car like and not 4wd.

No thank you DC
Build the Gladiator please.

"Both vehicles are the first Jeeps not engineered for severe off-road use."

Makes me want to gag.