Dillinger is a knothead . He couldn't figure how to blow his nose with dynamite, a miner's hat and a sack of new blasting caps.Give me Liberty or Give Me Death (death, of course is a straight axled rock crawler).
kj007

here is my comment

I agree - Jeeps needs something to set itself apart from the rest of the pack. I agree; my XJ is just as smooth on-road as my old Ford Exploder so why the big move to IFS? My Explorer used to always get hung up on rocks something I never have experienced in my XJ.

Sure, the XJ was due for a redesign. I just wish that they sold at least one version of the Liberty without IFS.

On Jeep's own website they claim (I'm paraphrazing) that although the Liberty is not as smooth on-road as some of its competitors, it is far superior off-road. If on-road ride is not so important to the Liberty, why move to IFS? Why move to an inferior system? Go back to Live axle and totally blow the competitors out off the water.

I love the solid front axle on my Grand Cherokee. It's so well controlled that most people who own them don't even know it's not IFS. That even included an engineer gearhead friend. What makes it a Jeep is the way it takes me on the roughest NFS and BLM roads without a scrape or concern. A quick car wash, and it's a great suburban wagon. If Jeep loses the off-road edge, why would anyone buy one? Although my WJ is by far the highest quality Jeep I've had, including 3 XJs, you have to admit they're not at the Toyota level. If DC tries to match with Lexus, Honda, and Toyota converted minivans and soft-roaders, they'll lose, unless they way undercut on price. Jeep has to keep the off-road capability and reputation, or just be a second class 4X wannabe.

here is my comment

I do buy the fact that the KJ runs the risk of falling out of style.

Someone on this forum described the XJ perfectly as a black tux; something that never goes out of style. The KJ is more like a polyester suit. I thought the DAKAR was more of a classic design - like the old Jeep Willys Station Wagon. Those things are pretty impressive when you see one drive by. I believe the DAKAR would have invoked the same response. Too bad they didn't mass produce the thing.

Lets be real, most Jeeps, be they XJ's or KJ's never see offroad duty so the IFS argument does not hold.
So what is the reason that KJ sales are down?
Probably due to the fact that the styling is more trendy than the XJ was and in a fickle market place ( read more female buyers) you run the risk of falling out of fashion, after all how often do mens shoes styles change compared to womans?

here is my comment

I like the Wrangler but you are right; it is a good chunk of change. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months. It seems like DC is hoping that all these new trim packages are going to enhance sales.

This is just my opinion but I think that a 4 door Wrangler and a 4 door Wrangler short bed pickup would make some $$.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most. It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most. It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability.

But hey... what do I know.

"That is why liberty sales are down. When you can lease a grand cherokee cheaper than a liberty.. Hmmnnn Who wouldn't move up to the grnd."

This makes more sense.

This I can believe... much better logic than the some posts who insert dislike toward a vehicle they don't care for, but cannot logically explain why the same downturn is happening to a Jeep vehicle they seemingly approve of..

I also believe the horrible commercials jeep now uses, when they do rarely appear, have something to do with the downturn. If you look at some of the comments from DC employees on Allpar's site, it looks like morale problems from poor management from DC Germany is a big problem at DC now. Not a good thing to have when your back is against the wall.
As for spin, if you take a deep breath, you'll probably be ok... whether DC builds what either you or I want, or they don't, life will go on. I just don't buy the argument that the xj was doing fine sales wise, while the kj was only ok, when it clearly outsold the xj right out of the gate. Since we have less than 2 full years of sales data on the kj, that's all we have to compare. And most of the early predictions about it never selling well retreated into the background when it did, now rising up again like some incantation of hopeful ill wishers. All other arguments aside, sales figures tell where demand is.

btw, I believe it was the spin commenting poster who put up all that monthly sales rises, without showing how a dip a month before, or a poor previous years sales can show a tremendous percentage gain on even a modest increase. If I sell 10 vehicles a year, then 20 the next, great, I show 100% year on year gains. What is the baseline number of vehicles required to cover operating costs before DC makes any money? 70,000 ... 75,000 vehicles? It takes a lot more data than month on month to determine a trend.

As I said before, if current downward trends continue with the kj, but not for the GC or wrangler, then I'll be more inclined to believe that the loss of sfa and "ruggedness" was a contributing factor.

If you don't care for the kj, fine. But from where I sit, the spin is coming from the loss of a vehicle you liked a lot, and then interpret current sales trends of 2 months into something you hope will prove that discontinuing the xj or not building the kj with sfa is the cause of declining kj sales.

Nothing in the logic you offered supports that. I do recognize the anger over the loss of the xj, because I was one of those long ago who thought Jeep was nuts when they went to open axle joints on the front wheels instead of closed, and had lost all sense of Jeep heritage when they started using coil springs. But I got over it. If you look under the kj, they might as well as put a sfa in it - the carrier on the right side is long enough to take the space of a sfa, but they didn't.

If the comments from some DC employees are correct, DC Germany isn't listening. I think if they start rebadging Mitsubshi's as Jeeps it will further dilute the jeep brand. But I have no idea if it will sell or not. I'll have to wait and see. After, somebody is buying honda elements and a few even bought azteks. nuff said about that.

cheers

Then why are those $50,000 Hummers sellin'?

"best year the xj had was approximately 163K units, and iirc that was in 2000, a boom year for most vehicles"

1999: 165,261

As for selling well in 2000, it was also the final year of production for the vehicle. While it may have been a boom year, your spin is making me dizzy. The initial full years of production are usually the make-or-break years, whilst the last year is usually the break year when buyers shy away from discontinued products.

Put things in perspective: the KJ isn't a vast improvement in sales and represents a massive investment in a platform that won't see a return unless the platform can be implented for other products. This is the reason for the push on the Compass. The Liberty's sales will continue to erode as it ages, and due to the market segment it targets it will age faster than any previous offering.

"Guess it depends on what you want to believe... "

Apparently so. You're comparing the Liberty to a a vehicle that was in production, relatively unchanged, for 18 years.

Correction -V sales were down ytd ~ 3.4% at the end of August, down ~1.8% in September

These are the latest figures I found (from hond-acura.net)

1) Ford Escape - 13,216 (123,590 +16.9%)
2) Jeep Liberty - 10,253 (118,549 -5%)
3) Honda
-V - 11,337 (110,699 -1.8%)
4) Toyota RAV4 - 6,000 (57,095 -15.2%)

Data as of September 03. First figure is September sales, 2nd is CYTD, 3rd is percentage of change yearly to date comparing 03 to 02. Ford Escape has increase because 02 its sales were down compared to KJ. V, even with new model and stronger engine, started out and remains in 3rd place when compared to Ford Escape and KJ, by comparison in same size class. None of this answers the question about why the Wrangler dropped badly in September if the previous reasons listed (ruggedness, sfa, trailworthy etc) were reasons for September declines on the KJ...

Lets go back to 1984 and the new XJ just was introduced.
I have been used to driving "real" Jeeps when now all they are selling is "junk". This new XJ Cherokee sits lower than the big Cherokee I was used to driving and it looks wimpy and is only driven by moms. And whats up with this Wagoneer model with that goofy front end? I think I will stick with my CJ or Grand Wagoneer, they are the only real Jeeps.
Lets fast forward to now. Replace the Cherokee with Liberty, CJ with TJ and Grand Wagoneer with Grand Cherokee. See anything familiar?
I see a day after everyones Cherokees finally die and they are driving Liberty's and DC decides it's time to replace the KJ with something new everyone will have a fit all over again.

When you consider Jeep’s history, it is clear that Jeep is not just highly off-road capable vehicles. What I’ve always considered Jeep is the alternative vehicle compared to the others. Jeep has made its mark in being a niche player and built vehicles that no one else was making. In some cases, Jeep started trends. With the Liberty, we are seeing a change of events. Not that the Liberty is a poor vehicle, but in reality, the Liberty is really no different than what all of the other auto makers are producing in that class.

The Wrangler is obviously unique, and no one has successfully duplicated that vehicle. The XJ Cherokee came when no one was building a low cost SUV. The Grand Cherokee was really one of the first affordable luxury SUVs to hit the market. As LGK pointed out, Jeep also produced non-rock crawling vehicles like the Jeepster, the Willy’s Station Wagon, and the Commando. If you step into your time machine and look what else was produced back when those vehicles were made, Jeep was obviously very unique compared to the competition

The real Jeep heritage is not just off-road machines. I suspect that many of Jeep’s customers are drivers looking to drive something that not everyone else has. Sadly, the Liberty does not fall into that category, which is why I suspect sales are beginning to decline. In addition, the Grand Cherokee has now been imitated by so many others, that it too is losing selling power.

I know the auto industry as a whole is having a tough time selling cars, especially the American auto manufacturers. In part, this is why Jeep sales are down, but I think Liberty sales are down for additional reasons. The Liberty is a fine vehicle in its class, but what makes the Liberty different than the competition? The Liberty is in a class where constant styling change is needed to keep customers. Jeep has never really been a styling leader. The Liberty sold well in its first years, but with so much competition, the vehicle is getting lost.

I think what concerns me, as well as others, is the Liberty is a major flag indicating a serious change for Jeep. Should Jeep follow the industry or should they remain unique and inventive? My fear is if Jeep continues to tackle the competition head to head, they will lose, and over time, they will disappear.

here is my comment

I've heard KJ owners say they like the KJ over the XJ. I've also heard ex-XJ owners say that they regret trading in their XJ for a KJ. I can't speak for the KJ since I've never driven one. I just can't see how a KJ with less ground clearance and IFS can be a better off-roader than an XJ. Isn't it physically impossible? I'd like to hear arguments on both sides from people whove driven both.

Although the FSJ was not made for trails like a CJ, it was a vehicle unique to Jeep. It would be nice to see Jeep build vehicles that are unique to the brand. I realize that is harder now than it was 40 years ago but I beleive it can still be done.

Land Rovers are too expensive and too costly to repair.

HUMMERS are too big, too expensive to and purchase and the H2 is not as "off-road" capable as the H1.

Jeep needs to let people know what makes a Jeep a Jeep. Other companies are doing what Jeep should be doing.

here is my comment

I still beleive that if Jeep went hard after the off-road segment they'd win back people who've moved over to HUMMER, Xterra, and Land Rover. Jeep needs to offer a Wrangler like vehicle with more cargo space. Jeep made a ton of money in the past by providing vehicles that no one else had: CJ, XJ, FSJ. Not many companies provide really off-roaders any more. They produce mini-vans with 4x4 or AWD. It's time for Jeep to go back to its core.

stop whining about the whiners, whiner.

Your site is great! I have seen the Wrangler Willys on display at my local Jeep dealer in Stamford, CT. Does not seem to be drawing much attention. I have also seen them for sale on Ebay! Yikes! Am considering trading in my 94 Sahara with 90K miles and still with original brakes. The only issue with the Willys is that it not available with full doors. All of this publicity has gotten me off my butt to get the master cylinder replaced on my mint 1951 M38 and drive the original Willys LOL. My 51 has the original Korean war first aid kit and it runs like a clock. It gets 25 MPG and the only mod I have made is to install an electric fuel pump running off battery #1 cuz modern fuel EATS the fuel pump gaskets. Jeeps rock tho and I have never been left stranded.
Altho Wrangler sales may be declining, people in general here in CT are pulling old CJ7s out of swamps and fixing them up. You haven't experienced anything until you have hit the floor starter on an ORIGINAL Willys! Pity the poor Chrysler Pacifica...they are sitting on the dealer's lots.

here is my comment: I couldn't read the story because the stupid pop-up add wouldn't go away.

Chrysler Jeep Dealers in the DFW area are hurtn. The new dealership where i purchased my grand has now closed and moved its inventory and merged with other brands that are hurtn. However, its funny when i went into the dealer today and talked about buy a wrangler at dealer invoice minus incentives. I was quickly told its "wrangler season" and all wranglers are being sold at sticker minus incentives. They wanted me to believe that they have had no problems selling wranglers and the sales were stronger than ever, even after i showed them the numbers listed here. I was told that was all wrong and they did not know where i got those figures. Also, i said then why have the incentive been raised and was told to compete with other manufacturers and had nothing to do with sale figures. I just laughed in their face and walked out what jerks not even wanting to deal at all and wanting me to pay their childs way to college and let them laugh at me all the way to the bank.

Well it will be hard pressed to see a decline like this for next month. as to the reason why there have been many good points made and it will be interesting to see how DCX responds. It has increased its incentives at the beginning of october until Jan. 2 so i knew something was up with the sales figures. If wrangler incentives for 04 are increased again then i might be in the market for one. However, as a grand owner its just hard for me to see spending soo much for a wrangler with no room although its one of the neatest convertibles around. IMO the competition is eating jeeps lunch plain and simple, jeep needs to bring updated models out and at sooner intervals. It had the lead on this years back but has been buried by the competition. Come on jeep do something....

here is my comment

Most trucks do have IFS but the heavier duty versions tend to be solid axle.

There are two other vehicles that look like Wranglers: HUMMER H1; HUMMER H2.
The new Scrambler will be next so the KJ is not unique.

If IFS is so good why do people convert their IFSs into solid axle. I'm no hard core offroader but I had a 4x4 with IFS and it wasn't very capable hence I went to and TJ and then and XJ and now I'm hooked.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most.
It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability problems.

But hey... what do I know.

If the liberty did have a live axle it still wouldn't satisfy most. It does appear on all jeep fourms, except a very few. that most jeepers like to live in the past. They don't like change. The truth is IFS works. If it didn't the trucks wouldn't have them. Ford and GM have been using them on their trucks for years. I think it gets back to the fact that people got use to the XJ look. Yes the liberty to some does have a cartoonish look.. But look closer. IT does have the look SORT of like the wranglers front end. You can't say that about anything else on the market. Nothing else on the market has the jeep name behind it either. Now factor in the fact that the quality on the Jeep Liberty is probably the best the jeep brand has ever had... Now if the grand and wrangler can only follow in the quality of the liberty. You might start seeing people come back.. Alot of people were very unhappy with jeeps in the past espically the XJ and wrangler because of reliability.

But hey... what do I know.

here is my comment

"I just don't buy the argument that the xj was doing fine sales wise, while the kj was only ok, when it clearly outsold the xj right out of the gate."

Of course it was doing fine, look at the sales numbers the last few full production years. The KJ is NOT a relative sales improvement, and that's the point. You can characterize it any way you'd like, but moving 9000 more units in a year isn't a significant improvement. Especially when you factor in the cost of investing in a completely new platform.

"I believe it was the spin commenting poster who put up all that monthly sales rises, without showing how a dip a month before, or a poor previous years sales can show a tremendous percentage gain on even a modest increase."

Actually, I was the one with the spin comment.


"I think if they start rebadging Mitsubshi's as Jeeps it will further dilute the jeep brand."

Now you have me confused. Why would rebadged Mistubishis dilute the Jeep brand but the Liberty doesn't? What is the inherent superiority of the Liberty over it's competitors (and spare me the marketing hype -be specific)?

here is my comment

With that being said, the GC is still down 10 percent from last year. The TrailBlazer and H2 may be part of the reason.

It will be interesting to see if the redisign helps. But then again, if it has IFS, it may hurt sales.

It seems to me that DC is not too worried about the off-roading segment. What they seem to use Jeep for is to fill in the SUV gaps between Dodge and Chrysler

The hummers are selling to the rich. not the normal people.. You need like $4,000 to $6,000 down to keep payments at $450 per month on a lease! The Hummer 2 has taken away some from the grand. The Hummer 2 is now the must have luxury suv.. even if it really isn't all that luxury. People see that and know you have money. People use to think that way about a grand.. Not any more.

Want to know why the liberty sales are down.
IT's because when the cherokee was out the lease specials out on them were in the low $200's or less. Now fast foward to current day.. No one will see those type of deals with out money down.

The Grand lease's out better than the liberty.. So people comming out of the cherokee sport lease's are going to the grand to stay closer to the payments they were use to in the old cherokee. They test drive the liberty.. love the way it drives, and the fit and finish compared to the old cherokee. But bottom line in this economy. People are payment shoppers above all else. Maybe in a booming economy that would be different.

Jeff Bell or someone from Chrysler Financial needs to pay attention to that fact!!!!

That is why liberty sales are down. When you can lease a grand cherokee cheaper than a liberty.. Hmmnnn Who wouldn't move up to the grnd.

Just a thoght from someone selling Jeeps on the sales floor.

here is my comment

Considering that the last XJs had no sunroof option, a spare tire hogging the cargo area, a small back seat that folded in one piece instead of 3/4, was unrefined, and a rear window that didn't open, the XJ had darn good sales figures.

The KJ has advantages over the XJ in all of those areas yet you'd think would sell many times better than the XJ.

The problem is that it's (the KJ) too cartoonish, feminine and not as good off road as the XJ. Had DC refined the XJ and added those thing mentioned above rather than just leaving it alone, the sales figures would have been much better.

I'd like the KJ a lot more if DC offered just one version with live-axle in the front and they made it look more like a TJ or CJ; something that a man would be proud to drive. Build a vehicle -that 20 years from now - people will want to restore because of its off road ability and looks.

To answer Commenters "Food for thought", Yes the
Wrangler is not a practical vehicle for a family, and was never meant to be. It was NEVER marketed toward families, as GW's or Liberties may be.
But, alot of jeep fans have complained about lack of storage space in the CJ TJ etc..
Offroad prowess doesn't meam it can't have room for some fishing rods, packs, coolers, etc.
Nissan stole away the folks who would have jumped
at buying a Jeep Dakar, with the XTerra, which sells the "look" of offroad prowess and utility.
Chrysler mistake.

The monthly percentages and month over month by prior year can be affected by spikes and other factors. When you look at the yearly sales figures, the best year the xj had was approximately 163K units, and iirc that was in 2000, a boom year for most vehicles. The KJ sold 172K+ units in its first full year, 2002 when auto sales were supposedly declining... Ford Escape sales were declining until June of 03, and it trailed the KJ for 02.
V was down by ~ 3% by in September compared to 02. Guess it depends on what you want to believe...

The Cherokee averaged around 13,000 units sold per month in the last couple years before it's final year (topping 14,500 in April '99). That's after 16+ years of production.

Competitive Sales (Sept 2003):
Ford Escape... 13,216 units, +28.5% /prior yr
Trailblazer... 17,246 units, +26.7% /prior yr
GMC Envoy... 8,774 units, +14.4% /prior yr
Saturn VUE... 6,550 units, +12.9% /prior yr
Nissan XTerra... 5,576 units, +3.0% /prior yr

(May 2003, last available #'s released by Honda)
Honda
-V... 13,772 units, +13.1% /prior yr

So the Liberty sales aren't terrible but aren't great either --certainly not eclipsing the Cherokee as previously stated. It is worth mentioning that the XTerra has really dropped over the last few years despite recent increases.

If the Liberty sales are dropping for the reasons listed by several posters (IFS, not rugged enough, not unique enough, not trail worthy), then why is the sfa wrangler, rugged and trailworthy by these same posters standards, dropping like a rock in September also? And how did we get a viable trend in 2 months, when Liberty sales in its first full year beat the best one year sales of the "sacred" xj achieved in its entire 17 year run. Watch the sales figures through the end of the year... if the Libery sales keep dropping and sales of Wrangler and Grand Cherokees increase, then maybe there is some validity in these posts. If not, maybe its wishful thinking. btw, most of the jeep faithful I 've known over the last 30 years tell me that the reason they stopped buying GC's is because of quality problems and ever increasing price increases. They seem to love what it offers but can't stand the major quality flaws... And if you can only buy one 4 wheel drive vehicle, will your family fit in a rag top wrangler, or do you buy something with more of a weather resistant cabin? fodd for thought...

here is my comment

Great posts! It's great for Jeepers to stick together, but if Jeep becomes like every vehicle on the market then what the heck is there to be proud of.

I think that DC reads these forums (or similar type forums) and it is the core group that has forced DC to keep the Wrangler going and to improve the Wrangler.

We're not just a bunch of people who bitch about everything we don't like. I believe that if we didn't have passion for Jeeps, we wouldn't care what DC does to the brand.

Once again, ScramblerKen said it best..Most of us bought Jeeps to drive something unique and to set ourselves apart from other folks on the road. A Jeep originally made that statement, especially a CJ, YJ. or TJ...though now I have to wave to about 15 or so other "rebels" out there on my 22 mile commute home. Build the Dakar, be unique again!

Comparing the XJ to the FSJ's is silly. Departure angles for the XJ are 38 deg on approach, 31 deg on departure -better than most of the FSJ's. The wheelbase is shorter, making it more desireable on rougher trails. The box is smaller, allowing it to go where FSJ's don't dare. Weight for the XJ's hovered around 3100 lbs., much less than the XJ's. Again, desireable if you take it off-road. Ground clearance on the XJ is around 10.5". The FSJ's had a wide range of ground clearance, but none are appreciably more than the stock XJ. Many are less, so you'll have to be specific as what type of vehicle your comparing it to. Useable torque off-road: nod goes to the 4.0 I-6. It's all about crawling, and the reason those old four-bangers were perfectly competent in the military Jeeps.

Finally, the FSJ's were produced through 1991 with incredibly shrinking sales through the final year. I think there were less than 6,500 in '90 and less than 2,000 sold in '91. The XJ didn't replace the Full Sized Jeep.

I love the Full Sized Jeeps, but time on the trails has easily quelled that particular misconception. Both platforms are excellent bases for building hardcore machines, and both are excellent stock (nods go to FSJ's that came with D44s). Articulation is all-important and both deliver it through solid axles. The reason people object to the KJ is that it's not a good platform for off-road. In short, the IFS problem. Some object to the torque curve on the V6 as well.

It's not terribly fair to dismiss the disdain for the KJ's off-road ability because people aren't "used to it." It's a direction Jeep is going. The only previous use of IFS in a Jeep was short-lived, and not applicable to this discussion because of this.

What does this have to do with dwindling sales for the KJ? Directly... nothing. Indirectly, the point is this:

The one and only thing that seperates Jeep from the pack is off-road ability. It's the reason "heritage" and "Jeep" are commonly used in the same sentence.

Jeep is introducing products that are less capable off-road (read through the posts on the KJ forums - you'll find a lot of unfortunate souls who broke tie-rods and knuckles trying to go off-road. In one case the guy broke down in the parking lot against a curb).

If IFS takes over, and the V6 (torque higher on the power band) is standard, what will differentiate Jeep? The argument that IFS sells better isn't held up by the sales so far.

Finally, I'm not whining. I'm discussing. Feel free to disagree with me, but I thought that's what these "talkback" posts were for. Discussion. I've been Jeeping for 10 years, and love the ethos and history behind the brand. I don't like the direction Jeep seems to be taking and am simply explaining my point of view. Once the Wrangler goes extinct, and the entire product range is pavement-centric, I'll be done with new Jeeps. My hope is that DC is reading these things and taking our points to heart.

The KJ is fine for what it is, but let's not pretend it's a competent trail platform. It doesn't have the articulation, it doesn't have the ruggedness, and you can't even see where the hood ends from the driver's seat. It may be a competent contender against the XTerra (I doubt it, though), but it's missing many of the attributes that have been associated with Jeep despite being "Trail Rated."

1st. The only reason the Grand Cherokee sales are up is because of the stair step program that chrysler is offering to the dealers to move them (try an extra $1,000 for every one sold if the dealer hits it's numbers)

2nd. Jeep was always meant to mean you wave at each other when driving by. Everyone stuck together. Now that the liberty has come out everyone is quick to hate. The liberty is evey bit a jeep. You don't buy a car to haul stuff a truck would haul.. Same as the Liberty.. If You want to go off road and trash your stuff, that's what the over priced wrangler is for. But let's face it.. At a sticker price of around $24 to $25,000 for a nice wrangler sport!! With not room
for much.... And a liberty that is very capable off road for $23,000 with power everything....
Makes alot of sense for some one on a budget that needs more storage. (it's a start and the first Jeep for many of my customers)

IF you think the liberty isn't capable off road go to www.kjwest.com Or L.O.S.T .com It's a site only on the liberty.. Ask them what they think of the Liberty. They are actually the only true club that sticks together instead of bashing.

Don't get me wrong. The Wrangler is king.. But keep in mind the new grand comming out is going to be IFS as well..If IFS sucked they wouldn't dare put it on their only Flag ship left.

So in closing. .Please people.. Let's jeepers stick together. Let's show people why it's great to own a jeep.. Sorry so long.. Bad day on the new car showroom . NO TRAFFIC for chrysler's or JEEPS !!!!!

I'd glady replace my XJ Cherokee with 240,000 miles on it if Jeep made something I'd want to own. Hopefully the stretched Wrangler will be out soon and will be a decent vehicle, able to handle tough trails like any Jeep should. In an ideal world it would get much better fuel mileage and get 5 stars on all categories of the crash tests. And I hope the Rubicon package is available, along with the Diesel option, as long as I'm dreaming. Lets put the utility back in Sport-Utility.

PS, the original Willys Sation Wagon was available in Four Wheel Drive and it was very capable. I owned the pickup truck version ( a 1956 model). The highway ride, cloth covered wiring, lack of power steering, drum brakes that were a bear to work on, and poor fuel mileage left much to be desired, even with an overdrive. But I loved it, the thing was rated to carry a ton, and it was unstoppable (both on the trail and if the single circuit brake master cylinder failed). The wagons were sort of 1940's technology Dakars. I still think they look great.

Once again, not all Jeeps are rock-crawling monsters. See the Jeep Web-site and look at the Willys Station Wagon, the Jeepster, the Commando etc. Jeep history shows that the company be it Willys, AMC, Chrysler or DC has always struggled with its identity. I see the majority of these posts made up of people who haven't bought a new Jeep in years. Brand loyalty doesn't mean your still runnin' you 1976 CJ-5 because the new models are crap.

I don't understand why you are bashing the KJ. I traded my 1996 XJ w/ 118,000 miles in on a 2003 KJ Sport. The XJ was driving fine but I needed a change. The KJ is far superior to the XJ in fit and finish. As far as off-road, I do some trail riding but mostly I try to get through 110" of snow in the winter in Erie, Pa. FYI, I also own a 2003 TJ for serious off-roading. This is as it should be. TJ's and their derivitives for off-road. KJ's for refined driving with some off-roading. Remember we wouldn't have taken our 1987 Grand Wagoneers up the Rubicon.

I hope many of you jump brands so I don't have to be equated with whinny little bitches.

1. The Liberty is crap, so don't give him crap about giving the Liberty crap because that's crap. You may be surprised to learn many people don't agree with you that the Liberty is worthy of the JEEP badge. It's a circular argument.

2. Sales are down across the entire Chrylser Group? Read the sales blurb again:

"Through the end of the third quarter of 2003, Ram posted sales of 334,149 units, achieving the best-ever January-September sales total in Ram's history"


I do agree with one of your points, however. With the Liberty, DC has created a product that requires a refresh cycle much shorter than any previous product. The target demographic (younger, greater female representation) for the Liberty is largely motivated by trends. We won't be seeing the Liberty remain viable for seventeen years. Same could be said for the Grand Cherokee, which is in the luxury segment.

This is not a backlash against DCX. They have not done anything to the JEEP brand that deserves the ire of the consumers --- yet.

(Don't give me the crap about the Liberty -- its still worthy of the JEEP name)

The fact is that the entire CHRYSLER GROUP vehicle sales are in the toilet.

This is mostly due to the delay in launching new products.

Old products do not sell well against new designs.

Wow... the decline of Jeep as we know it has begun already. I'm telling you- when you piss off the very core members of your success and start catering to the Rav 4 owners of the world who NEVER repeat buy....You screw yourself. DCX is now learning this the hard way.