From PETE...Dillinger: name dropping trails.... you must be hardcore. Also the Liberty actually has more group clearance.... read those stats a little closer, not selectively.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete, You read 'em a little closer! I'll pull my measurements from the lowest point on the liberty (the control arm lowers), not the highest point (aka "the center diff")just as I should. THAT is reality (what's gonna drag first?).

I know trucks and Jeeps from one end to the other....this one won't make it, and the bad news is...it'll probably take Jeep w/ it when it dives..

I own an original Willys jeep WWII. What's this crap about seat belts in new jeeps. Sounds like a wuss-wagon to me. What kind of soccer mom-mobil has a "roll bar". How are you supposed to get a "roll bar" under low obstacles. Why are they making jeeps so big these days. What kind of weirdo would ride in a jeep that was any other color than olive drab. Only a girly jeep would have power steering and brakes. Who needs a radio And what's the deal with high back bucket seats, and doors of all things...

Dillinger: name dropping trails.... you must be hardcore. Also the Liberty actually has more group clearance.... read those stats a little closer, not selectively.

Gunsworth...did you finish your homework? Well it's time to let mommy tell you to get off of the computer, cause your not doing something positive with your time in that ridiculous post.

I have offroaded (more than gravel roads guys...they don't count)through the Guardian trail in N.M., mudbogs in MD and VA, Appalachain trailsin Va and TN. for some 20 years now. I hace EXPERIENCE in all kinds of suspensions ...and IFS just does not measure up.
The Cherokee still enjoys orders of 500 per day as of a week ago, and they're only producing a little over 400 a day.

Says alot about a vehicle that they were all too ready to kill off. Seems everybody wants one before they aren't available anymore....

The fact is that in speaking to large numbers of Jeep owners every week (as I do to spread the URL for the petition), I'm running into about the same conclusion as every other poll I've seen. Seems that 90% of them will buy a Grand Cherokee or TJ instead of a Liberty, and when those solid axled models aren't available anymore, they'll leave Jeep altogether.
Guess it's down to those fickle, impulse driven , non-loyal types we discussed...

More info at : www.widowmakeronline.homestead.com/liberty.html

here is my comment
to all you liberty dissin know nothings, all i have to say is this i have been a loyal jeep fanatic for years and i have driven the liberty on and off road, unlike you stubborn bastards. it kicks the sh*t out of that old school cherokee, not that it isnt capable, but until youve tried something, you shouldnt knock it. also if you were a true jeep lover you would have a little faith and quit bitchin.

The Hummer is considered to be pretty much unstoppable off road, it's only real limitation is getting it's gigantic porportions down narrow trails. The Hummer regularly bests Jeep vehicles in off road ability in comparison tests, and it has independant front suspention...

Rob

Margie: if you think that looks good you are either some grade A white trash or huffing some paint

The real bottom line is....... I don't care if the
Liberty can kick the XJ's A$$ offroad, it's still an
overly rounded, wussy looking .....wuss
mobile! It looks just like the Daewoo Kornado.
No wonder DC was so angry at Daewoo, the
really sad thing is the Daewoo is more of a
"rig" in appearance then that New Beetle
looking Liberty wuss mobile. The XJ blows the
Liberty away in terms of rugged appearance,
Shame on you DC for not building the Dakar,
and as for the Liberty...... I wouldn't drive
anything that looks that wimpy....and neither
would real Jeep fans.

Anyone that spouts that the Liberty has better or equal ground clearance than an XJ needs to look at the suspension in real living color before you make an ass out of yourself...

Pic of that front configuration is at :

http://www.widowmakeronline.homestead.com/Liveaxle.html

CrazyJeep (and all other bashers of any variety),

I haven't insulted you, I've expressed disagreement with your opinion. I'd appreciate the same, even if you're just taking issue with my stereo system. ;)

As for facts, I'm interested in the plethora of articles you cite. Any issue numbers/links you could pass my way would be appreciated. I'm really interested in the glowing review from Peterson's. (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're referring to).

As for Land Rover, yes... the Freelander is an abomination to the brand. It's not even a recent development, as it's been available overseas for some time (in underpowered trim). With it's lower price-point, it's aimed squarely at the soccer-mom sweet spot in the American market and has engendered many of the same criticisms that the Liberty has.

As for my doubt regarding the KJ, much of it has to do with the prospect of dealing with the IFS to make it appropriate for moderate off-roading. It's a matter of dealing with a system that's not appropriate for brush modification: double A-arms limiting vertical travel with any alteration causing problems with camber, and travel, complicating the mod and results further. This also causes unique pressure on the frame attachment for the control arms (which I garuantee you will require further welding to bolster).

The torsion bars are another way to go, and can result in a small lift. The increased camber as a result of this will also cause problems with the ball joint and result in unusable tire wear for what is essentially a minor modification. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THIS and you won't be able to correct the misalignment. Anyone clever enough to come up with a ball joint design that bypasses the extreme angle induced should be nominated for a Nobel. Another problem with the torsion bar setup has to do with control arms already mentioned. There are upper and lower bumpstops that determine the limits of vertical travel. Adjusting the torsion bar will yield a small increase in lift, but will also force the distance between upper control arm's bumpstops to decrease (dramatically). This will result in a decrease in the amount of drop in the wheel from rest, leaving it hanging in mid-air when traversing rough terrain.

New upper-arm replacement kits will undoubtedly be offered, but as our lesser-SUV IFS-riding brethren know, these replacement kits will not alleviate downward travel and the resulting ride will render the ride completely unusable (it's like riding in a vehicle with four different-sized tires made of granite -and I know, I've ridden in some Frankensteins like this).

Basically, with the IFS-system, you can easily achieve ride height (the lift will allow larger-sized tires to be fitted) but you will sacrifice articulation and that is essential to a competent off-roader. Additionally, you're left exposed when (not "if") your CV's bite the dust. I've heard of solid-axle conversion for things like Nissans, but really... it seems absurd to me that one day we'll have to convert a Jeep into a solid axle vehicle to make it capable off-road.

Now, ignoring the limited options you're left with in an IFS system for modification let's take a look at a simple comparison of stock IFS vs. stock (and somewhat limited) solid-axle design... a picture's worth a thousand words: http://home.mho.net/toy283/trucks.htm

OK, now some of you are going to say: "So what!? You're average buyer isn't going to need a capable off-road vehicle!" You're absolutely right. However, we're talking about something unique in the automotive industry: a brand that can back up the swagger with genuine capability (even right out of the box). If this doesn't matter to you, than why are you driving a Jeep?

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to throw some facts into the mix. I'm not a genuflector who simply hates change. I'm a big fan of genuine innovation, and would love to see the Grand Cherokee adopt the Kinetic Suspension System (which is a possiblity if the rumors hold water). I'm also impressed with Land Rover's active suspension system. From an engineering perspective, I just don't see IFS as being the answer here.

This is a site about Jeep vehicle opinions,
not to spout our religios leanings,...besides
I believe Jesus was always a CJ5 kinda guy...

here is my comment
management should not allow the jeep factory to go to mexico, why not take care of the american citizen on american soil, enough of our jobs have gone to china, mexico, japan.it is selfish of jeep to put american workers out of work because some corp. executive says here's how to make an extra dollar all you want is a product produced for fifty cents an hour. why not lower all the corporate executives million dollar a year salaries by a few thousand a year and you will then save a dollar. i own a jeep cherokee and i was going to trade in and get a grand cherokee but now that you want to put people out of work, my next vehicle will be a chevrolet Z71. thank you for taking time to read this letter and i ask you to reconsider closing a plant, and i will reconsider my next vehicle purchase. i will monitor this plant closing situation by internet.

Compared to Griff it was.

Griff, you are starting to bore me so I will keep my response short ( UNLIKE YOU). If you actually read my last post you would realize I never said anything
disparaging about Rover, just that you should buy one. Again, if you actually
read my last post then you should know that I prefer the XJ over the KJ and I
am not here to be a spokeman for the KJ factions. In a recent Car and Driver
test of compact SUV's they were suprised by how easily the X-terra got stuck,
while they turned around before they were able to get the XJ stuck. The Rav-4
did better than the X-terra off-road. Trickle down economics only benefit the
rich like you and Dillinger, you only subscribe to that theory so that you can
sleep at night. The middle class and the poor are still waiting to get trickled on.
I hate to drag the subject of drilling for oil in the Arctic reserve onto this Jeep
page ( I apologize to the other readers) but since you ask. The U.S. Geological
Survey says that if any oil exhist there at all it would amount to a mere six
months worth of national energy ! What's more, that oil would take ten years
to get to market, doing nothing to bring down today's gasoline prices. Even
when that oil does get to market, it would only equal a tiny fraction , less than
2% of our nations oil consumption. A report from the U.S. Public Interest
Research Group documents that BP Amoco was responsible for 104 oil spills in
America's Arcticbetween January 1998 and March 1999. What G.W. and his oil
buddies don't tell you is that we could save an equivalent amount of oil over
that ten years by improving the average fuel efficiency of cars and trucks by a
mere three miles per gallon. Again I apologize to the other Jeep enthusiast
for taking up space here for this subject. From this point on I will confine my
comments to Jeep related issues.

Babs: "I work at DC, and I am part of the fast feedback program. You XJ lovers and unconditionals are wrong. the KJ is better in every aspect, except fuel economy."

Well, you're average minivan is "better in every aspect" to the XJ or KJ, including fuel economy. Interior space? Check. Ride comfort? Check. Seating capacity? Check. Safety ratings? Check (even if the KJ rates among the highest in it's category). Fuel economy? Check. Performance? Check.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point.

Where did you get internal space numbers? Look again. The KJ has less room inside, but a larger (and heavier) outside.Check the figures.DC lowered the 2001 models figures so the KJ would be larger. Look at the 1999 model compared to the 2001. Completely different numbers, but exactly the same body and trim...

The engine will need that HP to move this thing. And it fails the "Jeep" test as wll. Round headlights and seven slot grill.....they'd better worry about chassis refinement...and that was at a perfect union for ride, handling and offroading under the WJ. Why change perfection.

4000...where does everybody jump on a fragment of the real number? I said it was a part of the representation of the legions that feel as we do. You guys sound like you may be scared we'll succeed.

I have no problem with the KJ itself, it just needs to be sold as a Dodge product. That way, DC still makes the bucks on it.
But it's coming does not mean the dilution of the reputation that Jeep currently holds in it's niche market.

You folks don't get it. If DC was trying to sell the "new and improved" Viper w/ the 4 cylinder from a minivan under the hood to it's enthusiast, you'd call them crazy, and maybe you'd begin to understand that Jeep is, and should ever remain a specialized division of DC.

Griff, for once you and I see eye to eye on something. I don’t believe the current economic situation has got anything to do with our new President!! Someone once told me it takes 5 to 10 years for a president’s economic efforts to affect the economy. SOOOOO, Billy may have done more than screw an intern!

I don’t agree that DC is going to take notice of 4000 screaming Jeep enthusiasts. Especially when those self proclaimed enthusiasts whine and banter in such a way as they do here. Constructive criticism would go a long way to improve the situation. Lets face the “big picture” here. Jeep sales are a SMALL portion of DC business. Be careful when comparing Jeep to Rover! The new Freelander appears to be IFS front and rear. (Though I’m not 100% about this, Rover is unwilling to promote their new vehicle beyond pictures.) And when you compare Jeeps to Rovers, where are many places a Jeeps can go that I’m not sure I’d want to take a Rover. (Another interesting note, if you visit any of the USA Rover off-road web sites, they show their vehicles pretty and clean driving through fields and dirt roads.)

I wish Jeep would continue to XJ line myself. But there are 4 of them in different areas of my family and the general consensus is that they are VERY uncomfortable to travel in. They are boxy, load, rattle within a few years of purchase, and are very basic in both appearance and amenities. Stop for a second and imagine if your average “soccer mom”, who didn’t want the yucky minivan, had a choice between an Xterra and a Cherokee, (knowing nothing about the Jeep heritage) what would she buy? I think the choice is obvious for her. AGAIN, those of us who are Jeep fanatics and off-roaders make up the MINORITY. DC wants to compete with that kind of competition, stop whining that DC doesn’t care about Jeep! If they didn’t care they would have sent the KJ engineering budget somewhere else.

The KJ improves on the XJ in almost every aspect:

Stiffer Uni-body frame
Coil rear suspension
More internal space
Comparable ground clearance, approach, and departure angles
New 2000ish look
Same towing and GVWR
“dent and scratch forgiving” body side panels

Seems like the only argument is over IFS and I think those of us who are stout solid axle buffs are going to loose to the larger population of cushy pavement drivers. JUST REMEMBER, THOSE WHO HAVE TESTED THE LIBERTY CLAIM IT HAS JUST AS MUCH OFFROAD PROWRESS AS THE XJ!!

Only the truly small minded would say such a thing. It's not only 4000...that is just a representation of the cross section of Jeep owners that are represented ..

DC took on those p.o.'d shareholders today ...
I wanna see what they had to say.

As far as what DC thinks of me....well, let's just say that as "small" as the campaign is...they are very aware of it. Lil 'ol me. Shucks.
This whole thing grew out of their disregard for me as a single buyer. So I bound out to find all others that felt as I did. And I grow stronger and bolder in my resolve with every signature.

They will hear us, and so will the country when I bring the press in come September!
I may not change anything, but they will damned sure know that we were there.

I know what Jeeps direction should be. I've been driving and 4 wheeling them for 20 years...
What's your experience? You slept in a Holiday Inn Select last nite?

Has anyone seen a Jeep Wrangler commercial on TV, in a magazine, etc. It seems to me that DaimlerCrysler isn't much interested in Jeep anyway, since they never advertise it. I am a recent TJ Wrangler buyer, and I don't remember EVER seeing and ad.

The only reason I became interested in Jeeps is bacause my brother has one and let me drive it. I was overwhelmed immediately, and was driving a '99 TJ within two weeks!

What's the big deal? Let Chrysler do what they want. Some day soon Nissan or Toyota will buy the whole division. In the meantime, we can build a Jeep TJ/YJ/CJ from the ground up without Chrysler. Have you looked into a Quadratec, or 4WD Hardware catalog recently?

I am trying my best to further the Jeep idea. Check out my new Jeep website at: www.gp4wd.com, and send me an e-mail with suggestions: darrell@compulegal.com. I'll be looking for your "Jeep Wave" next time we pass!

Blah, Blah, Blah the Griff speaks again, and again, and again. G.W. is an idiot.
Time will prove that just as it will prove you wrong about the KJ. I don't know
what is more amusing, your take on the economy over the past eight years or
the fact that you called me a whiner, thats rich.

As for Mr. Dillinger's comments. I'am sure DC is losing sleep worrying about
you and your 4000 contacts. You and your gang of 4000 who are so loyal to
the Jeep brand that you may never buy another. You got em right where you
want em, don't you.

Turbo....again, a real nice name for a riceboy....
on a honda board....
For your info, I'm in correspondence with over 4000 jeepers that are outraged. DC had better hear us, or face the music. We are incredibly loyal to our brand, unlike the fickle, uninformed masses that buy anything you put in front of them...We KNOW what is under our vehicles!

Unlike changes in past models (i.e.square headlights, unibody construction)Jeep has altered the very platform that the vehicle rides on....comepletely different than any aesthetic changes of past years!If DC believed in the KJ so much, why not run it beside the XJ for a couple of years? I'll tell you why....it would go the way of the Probe next to the Mustang!

And they are doing this just when Jeep and Rover were the only real legends in offroad...and at a time when ARCA is about to become as popular as NASCAR...
And DC is basically handing that title to Rover.
After the brand is watered down, people will move on to whatever it is that has a tough reputation at that time...leaving DC/Jeep to pick up the peices and try to put it back together...but they'll have run their core supporters off to Rovers or used Jeeps.
If you don't know what that means , then its a "Jeep Thing"...and you'll never understand. That was also Daimlers first mistake...

here is my comment
Well guys, I am posting a bit late as I have been "wheelin" in Arizona and the East Mojave desert. I drive a 92 wrangler with only mild mods, this is my sixth JEEP in a row. I have had a 51 willys, 83 Scrambler, and two wranglers as well as a Cherokee. Now, I am not a purist, but it seems that we might need to have a burial mass for the off road capability of the AMERICAN machine! It seems that corporate america has sold us down the road in the name of higher profits to such forign entities as daimler. I see general motors using no imagination and bleeding red ink, ford trying to fix thier "soccer wagon", 2wd vehicles and point the blame. But that problem seems to be overlooked in that, it is the way that people try to drive a vehicle with high center of gravity like it was a ferrari!!!! How many soccer moms have we seen blasting around like gen Patton to get those snot nosed kids to the McDonalds for thier premium toys and greasy soggy burger. JEE, loke it's name implys should be a capable and sturdy machine. Time has shown that the simplicity of a solid axle, square cut and simple STEEL panels that can be repaired on the trail, and basic reliable powered vehicles that can be fixed far away from a computer diognostic, serve the needs of the individual better. I love to ride to the next state in a cushy air conditioned sedan and be comfortable all the way, BUT when I go out to the trails, I want to be able to tackle some rough terrain like I find out here. Call me a dinosaur, but my "cathedral", is out in the forest, or down a wash in the dest and not in some smoggy city! "nuff said" I love my JEEP!!! and will really miss the mkae when D/C runs it into the ground!!!! my 2 cents!!!

"Are you "solid axle" guys still going to be whining in about five years when Jeep introduces that kinetic suspension system? They don't pay their designers and engineers well for nothing, you know. Solid axles will be a thing of the past (on light trucks),like it or not. "

Get your facts straight, and then we can talk..
First up, the Overland system was put on hold by Daimler (it was slated for the IFS GC units).

I haven't recieved word on the final decision on the Kinetic System's demise...but it wasn't looking good. The Kinetic system is applied to solid axled entries, and Jeep enthusiasts welcomed it as a worthy addition to the line.

As for dealing with independent suspensions, ...I don't HAVE to take anything. I will make a change , even if it entails purchasing my next offroader from the next company that understands my needs ...(since Jeep/DCX wants to hand the fourwheeler of the year award, and all bragging rights over to LandRover so badly )it will more than likely be a Rover.

Are you "solid axle" guys still going to be whining in about five years when Jeep introduces that kinetic suspension system? They don't pay their designers and engineers well for nothing, you know. Solid axles will be a thing of the past (on light trucks),like it or not.

I've pulled numerous Inferior front supensioned vehicles from grasp that would never stop my stock XJ. I own a CK1500 late model Chevy with that IFS, and yes....one of the pulls was performed on it.
Most were Toyotas, although the Raiders from Mitsubishi, as well as Isuzu Amigos were not immune from the tow strap.


The Bad news is this....the KJ doesn't even have the clearance that Toyota , or any other IFS model recieved.


You wanna talk Hummers? Why? They aren't even in the class. Hummers have what's called gear reductions at each wheel. They effectively raise the ground clearance at each wheel by 6 inches. Not to mention that Hummers are locked, front and rear. AMGeneral knew that since they couldn't keep all tires on the ground with IFS/IRS, they'd better be able to push with the ones that were left on the ground.


Another fabrication is that the KJ has more interior room than an XJ. It seems that DC purposefully altered the interior cargo pace figures for the last year of the XJ to make the KJ figures appear to be larger ......

here is my comment

All you guys need to get a life!

Check out this lifted Liberty

http://www.jjournal.net/jeep/features/
Look under Monster KJ

Yes, I know it's fake, but suddenly the KJ doesn't look so bad...

Guys, the bottom line here is nobody knows what
the new Liberty is capable of, or not capable of.
We've only seen/read preliminary tests. That's it.
Period.

We should be having this discussion next year
about this time, after the Liberty has been out a
while. Then, and only then, will we have a good
idea of what it can, or cannot do.

Unitl then, your comments are pointless. I will
say this though. The Liberty is coming, and the
Cherokee is going. It seems rather silly to keep
bashing the vehicle, and instead, try to learn to
live with it. Jeep is not going to revert to so

The underling problem with the BIGTIME KJ pessimists here, is that they fear change at all costs. Griff is more than happy to put down the KJ and give praises to the Xterra. Griff did you bother to take notice that the Xterra has a leaf sprung rear end and IFS in the front?? Help me to understand this. You are complaining about the Liberty IFS and praising the Xterra’s?? The Liberty will most certainly turn out a better RTI index than the leaf sprung Xterra, yet the Liberty is crap? Don’t call yourselves unconditional XJ fans!! You are VERY much CONDITIONAL Jeep fans. You are fans on the CONDITION that Jeep makes what YOU want!

And for Pete’s sake! Stop praising Land Rover. The new Freelander appears to be IFS front and rear, no comments from the IFS hating group towards them??

Tell you what. Go buy your damn Xterra and when someone pulls your sorry butt out of the hole with his/her Libery (or any other Jeep) we’ll see who gets the last laugh.

What angers me more than anything is that many people here are blasting DC and Jeep because they don’t “like” the Liberty. Most of your complaints are touchy-feely based. “I don’t like the looks, I don’t like IFS, I don’t like V6’s” You are corrupting facts with your feelings. “The front pumpkin is lower than that of the XJ” Listen to yourself! So you are telling me that the KJ was designed in such a way that the axles would point upwards to the hubs when the vehicle is at rest?! THIS I GOTTA SEE!

One more thing, I can’t believe you would say that there are no IFS models of GM trucks gracing the covers of the 4-Wheel magazines. How many beefed up Rovers, Fords, WJ’s, XJ’s, or Suburbans have you seen on those same magazines? Is it because the all those vehicles are too NEW to be beating up on the trails yet? Ever stop to consider how many people go to the store and purchase a 20K+ truck to immediately take to the trails with a lift and a newly hyped up engine? My guess is not many! Give ‘em a few more years! I know of someone who “wheels” a lifted 90’s full-size IFS Blazer quite successfully!

I “loved” the Wagoneer, I’m “Sorry” Jeep ever got rid of it. But I still “Love” Jeep!

So Griff (and the rest of you KJ bashers) tell us all. What is the REAL reason why you don’t like the Liberty? Is it because you feel that Jeep has left you behind in some way? To make and analogy: You all must still be watching tube TV’s connected to BETA V
’s and listening to 8-tracks and LP’s on your MONO sound systems. As far as I am concerned, until you can come up with some FACTUAL reasons why the Liberty cannot perform in true Jeep tradition, you are simply spewing forth nonsensical opinionated puke! You are not doing anything to support the Jeep history or tradition!

here is my comment: To Bob from Oklahoma and American Worker: You guys need to actually read the article, and not just the headline. The jeep plant going to Mexico is the Mattel toys plant that builds TOY Wranglers, NOT a REAL JEEP PLANT! I don't think Jeep will ever leave this country. As far as Griff goes, here's my two cents. I started with a 91 wrangler, bare bones, that I bought new. I traded that in with 100,000 miles on a new 1995 XJ. I just traded my XJ in (with 206,000 miles) on a 2001 Grand Cherokee with the Up Country suspension package. I am also a solid axle fan. However, that said, none of us have ever driven, much less gone 4 wheeling in the Liberty, so how do we know what we are talking about? My 91 wrangler was lousy off-road compared to the XJ because we all know that a stock YJ has lousy wheel travel. The KJ has the same ground clearance and approach and departure angles as the XJ. It also has excelent stock wheel travel (8 inches). As far as it being a "DC parts bin car", nothing could be farther from the truth. It has the WJ rear suspension, and the XJ transfer cases, but the rest is new. The engine is based on the new 4.7 V8 in the Grand Cherokee, and the front suspension, exterior and interior are all new. If it had the quadra-coil suspension from the TJ, would you say that was "parts bin junk"? Also, if the Nissan X-Terra, with it's wimpy IFS (the KJ has forged steel and cast iron control arms, not stamped steel like just about every other truck) was better off-road than the solid axle XJ, why are we even debating this? That just shows that a well designed IFS can be good off-road, and if anyone can design a GREAT off-road IFS system, it's Jeep. Journalists from Four Wheeler, Peterson's 4 Wheel and Off-road, and Motor Trend magazines went on the Rubicon with pilot builds of the KJ with Jeep engineers, and they did just as well, if not better than the XJ (read the article). This was not DC talking, but independant reporters from 3 seperate magazines. The KJ, TJ, XJ, and WJ all needed to be winched in one place only. Also, the KJ had the least body damage. I think we all need to wait until we actually DRIVE ONE OURSELVES! I plan on driving one myself at Camp Jeep this year in their "Off-road 101" course. I am also looking forward to seeing it in the "four wheeler of the year" awards. Anyway, my point is that NONE OF US HAVE DRIVEN THE LIBERTY YET! And in 1983, the XJ was controversial, too. It got rid of the simple and rugged leaf spring front suspension for a complicated coil spring set-up. It also got rid of the body-on frame set-up, and went to a unibody. Moses Ludel in "The Jeep Bible" says that the XJ is good for light duty four wheeling but not for rock crawling beacause it has no frame. I'm sure we would ALL disagree with that statement! Give the KJ time, I think it will prove itself to be ALL JEEP. As far as that "low diff" goes, everyone knows that an IFS HAS to have higher running ground clearance than a solid axle, because the axle housing is tucked up into the frame. It is during upward wheel travel that you lose that extra couple of inches of ground clearance. Note to AMERICAN WORKER: I am also a Christian, and I was really glad to see you post the Gospel on this board. Send me an e-mail, or a posting.

here is my comment
jesus our lord and savior said what profit it a man to gain the world and loose his only soul.
this is what jeep is doing by closing a plant and putting american workers out of a job for the sake af a dollar. just remember some day or some year you will stand in front of jesus and give account for every action you did on this earth.

jesus said : im the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father except through me.
admit your sin, confess to jesus and ask him to forgive you, ask jesus to come into your life and make you new. believe he is the only begotten son of god, and he died on the cross for your sin, and 3 days latter he arose from the dead and now he sits at the right hand of god, you then shall be saved by his grace.
for you are saved by grace not by works, read john chapter 3 verse 16

here is my comment

I've owned 3 Jeeps over the last 20 years, 2 of them XJ's. These have been the best vehicles I've ever owned. My '93 has over 180,000 trouble free miles, while my '86 had nearly 300,000 when I rolled it backwards over a 40 foot cliff on Hell's Revenge in Moab (We rolled it back over and I drove it 20 miles back to town on the trail). They have their faults, like not enough room for tall people like me, and an uncomfotable rear seat, but with a few mods, they will go anywhere, carry a hugh load, and run forever with very few repairs. Will the KJ do this? I doubt it. I was hoping for a replacement along the lines of the Dakar concept, or maybe a smaller/trimmed down Grand Cherokee, or even the Jeepster Concept, but not an ugly thing that rides and drives like a car and has IFS. The KJ looks like something designed by accountants and lawyers or the minivan team. I just don't get it. And Babs, why is the fuel mileage lower on the KJ than on the XJ? All you had to do was make it more aerodynamic and incorporate some off the shelf drive-train efficiencies. Last week I paid $2.54 a gallon for regular in Death Valley, and its just going to get worse. Remember the 70's when fuel guzzlers were the ones called dinasaurs, not XJ's, or am I the only one that old? Who is going to buy this thing? I'm not against change, but the KJ falls short of my needs. Does Jeep have something decent in the wings, or is this it?

THAT WAS SHORT?

Hey Turbo if it really bothers you alot I have a 1995 Range Rover Classic. I like it because durring that year they kept the old body style and put a new dash and interior with dual airbags in it. Also that year they introduced the new body style range rover they have now. And in that model year they sold every one on the lot, just like they do every year. I recomend you back off of a company that in the late 80's you could have to be on a two year waiting list at some dealers to get Range Rovers in America. Must be a pretty capable worth while comfy truck to sit on that kind of cash for two years waiting for just some vehicle. Oh by the way it has solid axles and the V8's in the 2001's are the same V8's they bought from buick in the 70's with a little work. Who says you can't improve upon a good thing and it not be successful. You don't have to create a totally new vehicle to make money.

I applaud dillinger and malcomxj, i despise Mr. "U R REDUNDANT", and I think Turbo is about the worst spokesman for the KJ faction you can have. Hey Turbo you and Babs should combine your powers and go full force with the glorification of the KJ thing. The most amusing is the fact that Babs is a DC worker. I know you get paid to push the KJ, but you still have XJ's on the lot. I wouldn't trash them yet. Also Babs I really doubt you are part of the "fast feedback" program. Why you ask? Well because if you were you were the people telling DC product naming people that the American consumer that looks at the KJ isn't going to see any resemblance to the Cherokee therefore you can't call it a Cherokee. Hence the birth of the oddly useless name Liberty. But I rather that than you resurrecting a name of a more capable vehicle like Wagoneer, Honcho, or Chief and ruining it by putting it on the KJ. So we unconditional XJ lovers aren't wrong or atleast when it comes to the issue of the name we weren't and you obviously agreed with us, but you would know that being Mr/Mrs "Fast Feedback."

Speaking of MalcomXJ's comment on magazines about off roading that brings up a good example of IFS to solid axle. When you open any of those magazines and go to a article about some trail ride look how many 1988 and up GM Full Size Trucks you see. WHAT!?!?!? Where are they, GASP! They aren't there because their IFS is too much trouble to worry about when it comes to getting over big rocks, between hard spaces, and doing pretty much anything extreme without breaking it. I love the big macho look of a GMC sliverado lifted sitting on 35's but that bad boy isn't good for anything but the stuff we did in high school with our big loud muscle cars like yard jobs and doing doughnuts on school football field. So take a look next time in those magazines the only IFS lifted rigs will mainly be show trucks or only light muddy trail rigs. That great if thats what you want but you can't get the extreme wheel travel that is needed for offroading cheaply with the KJ's or anyone's IFS.

Sure the KJ will still be better than a Rav-4 and Honda
V which it seems so eager to clone. But what about the Xterra. Although don't agree, the Xterra spanked the XJ in even the the lame motor trend offroad challenges. And Jeep really took a blow to its ego with all of that and they think the KJ is just going to knock the socks off of a Xterra and they will regain their pride. Just look at the two side by side. In stock form which looks more intimidating the KJ with its low diffentials and bloated bumpers just begging for a rock to dent them or the Xterra, no frills, rugged roof rack, high stance. Even with the up country package i guarantee the KJ will get spanked by the very thing it wants so much to beat. It may have 30 horses on it but who cares. I know looks oriented people like turbo don't. The KJ is beat before it even hits the showroom floor, but with 1500 dollars of mods that won't be out till sometime in 2002 for the KJ it will be all over the Xterra, a stock one that is.

So there's my 2 cents. Also Turbo since you obviously don't know much about economics i will calm your fears of America turning into a third world country. Every time the Feds have cut intrest rates 3 times over a short period of time like they have now within a year to two years the economy had either leveled or started on a up ward trend. I know that its hard to believe that these things don't happen right after intrest rates are cut but thats just something you'll have to read more about. Also pick up a book on trickle down economics and tell me that Regan isn't a large part of the reason Bubba from Arkansawgot such a good rap for saving the american economy. Just for kicks, i bet you think we shouldn't drill in Alaska either. Well I think we should but I'd rather you tell me why we shouldn't its kinda funny.

Hey Babs don't sell to many XJ's on me now, you wouldn't want to disapoint the Blessed one, otherwise known as the KJ.

SOLID AXLE FOREVER!!!!

I work at DC, and I am part of the fast feedback program. You XJ lovers and unconditionals are wrong. the KJ is better in every aspect, except fuel economy.

Sorry, but the XJ is a dinosaur, and is doomed by stricter impact requirements aroundthe corner. Welcome to the 21st century

The fact that people feel passionate about a brand of vehicle is a testament to the vehicle. When's the last time you came across an enthusiast board where people were arguing over the relative merits of the new Explorer? Personally, the closest I've come to this kind of vehemence would be the Corvette nuts that populate our fair land.

The homogenization of the automotive industry provides the consumer with more value for their money. Interchangeability of parts and common platforms between models promotes lower prices, better reliability, and BORING CARS. I'm glad we have Griffs around to throw some pepper into the chili. Keeps it from being too bland.

As I've mentioned, this is a brand with *enthusiasts* at it's core. If you don't think that matters, you might want to reconsider where the cachet of Jeep really comes from. It's not merely a remnant of the Willys persona, it's crazy bastards that mod their vehicles and proceed to do unholy things with them over large boulders. It may be a small percentage of owners, but it's the center of the brand. Dismissing "the 4000" is an economic mistake because it's turning your back on your greatest marketing asset, not because they're just 4000.

Go to the magazine section of your local supermarket and take a look at the car magazines. You'll see JP, 4-Wheeler, and Peterson's sitting on the shelf with XJ's and CJ's traversing rough terrain at odd angles on the cover. Five years from now, will we see KJ's gracing enthusiast magazines? I doubt it. I could be wrong (I often am), and this is just my opinion. I'm not an idiot, and I'm not an "old geezer" whining about the good old days. I'm an educated thirty-year-old man who enjoys mountain biking, sailing, long walks in the park, and quality equipment. If the KJ translates better in person than it does on paper I'll consider buying one. Considering what's on paper, and what my expectations are from a Jeep, that's a big "if"...

Can everyone shut the hell up. This bitching is pointless. First off, this a Jeep fan site, but most are dogging their "favorite brand". You speak of brand loyality, but you have jumped off the bandwagon before you even drove the Liberty. Second, the magazine articles most of you use to support your claims are the very same that have given the Liberty a thumbs up. Third, Rover is not some utopian offroad vehicle, and with the Freelander with its IS and lack of low range, and Ford as the new owner, it may soon become a higher priced Explorer. And fourth, if true Jeeps are built, build one. Or better yet, use your SUV for hauling, towing, and foul weather conditions, and get your pathetic ass out of your vehicle and climb a mountain using your body. As for economics, after all long term surges in the economy, a depression is expected. However, after learning from our past, rates are varied to vitalize spending and confidence, no matter who is in office. However, I assume most here are not concerned about market rates considering most fossils here probably keep money in an old coffee can, at least until bingo night.

Openminded challenged? Where do you see this (KJ is only the first installment of the ruining of the brand) thing going. Have you honestly sat and thought beyond the immediate needs of a bunch of wanna-be posers?....In five years when something else fills their needs, DC will come crawling back to 100,000's of it's once loyal buyers...but we will all be smugly situated in Rovers, and a host of other reasonably priced, more practical rides.
Dc had huge cojones....and they lost the bet. We get the last laugh. Jeep division will be just as noticable as....say...a Rav4 in about 4 -10 years.
Absolutely no distinguishing character whatsoever.

Even the wise investors/stockholders are becoming concerned that the long range damage to the name will be irrepairable.

I'll be off somewhere with Griff,laughing and shaking our heads at Jeeps' demise, and remembering the fools who knew it all, even as we say "I told you so".
I'm so sure of that day that I wish I could find all the naysayers then...to tell 'em that they should have opened their minds...

Thats for my open-mindedness challenged friends Griff and Dillinger. I do not
need any economics classes to know an idiot when I see one, secondly going
by CrazyJeeps assessments on the economy then this downturn, recession or
what ever you call it is G.W's daddys fault . Enough about the economy. I never said that I loved the KJ, in fact compared to the XJ I would pick the XJ
every time. As for the rest of the buying public they would probably pick the
KJ. If Jeep would continue to build a slightly revised Cherokee they would go
broke in no time. I picked up the newspaper today and there in one of the
local Jeep dealers it list four or five different discounts that add up to $11,000
off MSRP if you lease one. Sure their selling everyone they build, but they
can not do that indefinitely and make money. ( I can't wait to here your next
economics lesson on how they can, professor). The KJ is going to do something
that the XJ is having a hard time doing and that is to bring some new blood
into the Jeep fold, hopefully they will become loyal JEEPERS and the Jeep legend
grows. In case you guys haven't noticed its the 21st century and people demand more than 1950s or 1960s technology in their Jeeps. You guys are
living in your own little dream world if you think the Jeep legend is going to die
because of IFS. The KJ doesn't have to be better than the Cherokee it has to be better than the Jeep wannabes from Toyota, Honda, Kia, Ford or Mazda and
I have no doubt with its 4x4 systems, low range and IFS articulation it will run
rings around these POS. I also know that none of that means a damn things to you because it does not have that holier than thou SOLID AXLE. So go ahead
abandon Jeep, buy your Rovers do what ever you have, just stop the belly
aching. The good thing is that there is a place for fossils like you guy in the
Jeep hobby. Someone has to preserve the classic real Jeeps in the future maybe you two can go into business together, heaven knows that Dillinger
dudes got the bucks. We know you could sell at least 4000 of them don't we.
( 4000, I believe was your number Mr. Dillinger, I know a representation ! ).
If you guys are pissed off now I can only imagine what you will be like if the KJ
is a hit with the press, public and the hard core enthusiast. Thats right you don't care about any of that do you, because you guys are right and everybody
else is wrong. Give me a break.
.

Well I see Crazy Jeep has taken his economics classes unlike our trendy KJ lovin "Turbo."

Dillinger is right, 4000 people is only a portion of the phenomenom. You want more than 4000 people that agree that the XJ is worthy of living over the KJ. Go to any of the Jeep Jamborees, any state, any weekend. And I am sure if you did that after a few weekends you'd easily have 4000 names. If it wasn't for the Cheorkee there would be no KJ. The Cherokee formed the small/mid size SUV segment. Before it if you wanted a SUV all you were driving were Wagoneers, Suburbans, & Blazers. Yet when it comes to giving credit where credit is due, good ole DC falls short. When they said they were going to put a V8 in the 2003 Viper instead of a V10. People screamed, and they listened. Its still a V10. I really don't know the numbers on Viper sales but I bet they weren't 15% of what the XJ sold last year. Yet they listened. I know, I know, I'm sure every Viper is grabbed up unlike XJ's but which has a more loyal audience that can actually afford to buy them.

American car companies do change thier designs alot. And unlike when they did it in the 60's and 70's where it was every three years, right now the redesign every 5 years is based very little to none on previous vehicle. In Europe the KJ is called Cherokee and my money is on if the KJ sales start slowing down after a few years the redesign will be very abscent of the Liberty name and will don the Cherokee name plate. Of course since there is only 4000 or so people out there that are hard core Jeepers that care they won't have to listen to us. For everyone who says, "well you call yourself a Jeep enthusiast but you hate the KJ, your so hypocritical" well to those people I say shove it. Because the KJ was designed where it could be sold as some other DC vehicle. Thats right the orginal design was flexable enough to be a dodge or chyrsler. That to me says the beloved KJ isn't a true Jeep. Jeeps are Jeeps, without heavy modification they shouldn't fit in any other line of cars. Jeep didn't become a leader in SUV's by making cookie cutter suv's that all the same. So remember that next time you tell me Jeep is alive and thriving and that they exemplify everything they have for the past 40 years.

SOLID AXLE FOREVER!!!

The thing that gets me is the Jeep slogan "There's only one".... This is no longer true, the KJ is just like all the other crap out there... regardless whether it uses the same transfer case as the XJ and TJ. DC needs to lead, not follow the others with the Jeep brand. DC basically violated the uniqueness of the Jeep brand by installing IFS in the KJ. Lets face it, Jeeps are basically trucks! Not mini vans or cars, and they ride that way because they are Jeeps. Next thing you know people will be driving these KJ things like sports cars, flipping them and blaming Jeep for their stupidity! Just because they ride and handle "like a car". If you want a "car like ride" buy a car! Why do people want a truck to ride like a car anyway?

The whole resistance to IFS stems from the fact that the majority DOES like IFS, and DO want their TRUCK to ride like a car, whatever! If this crap catches on we'll end up with a Wrangler with IFS and one POS off road vehicle!!! Then Jeep will have to change their slogan to "Jeep, There once was one" People just don't get it!

I once read a post somewhere that the Japanese car/truck makers change their models too often and have no loyalty or tradition in their designs, the tables have turned!! US car makers change designs more than a change my underwear!! Every time they change designs the cost to the consumer goes up to cover tooling, etc. This also introduces more design problems, while not improving the quality of the product! The only reason they change designs so often is to get people to buy the latest design product, the sad thing is they usually make minor changes, cosmetic. People are just stupid and superficial enough to buy a new car just because they guy down the street has a newer model!

CrazyJeep you make some great points about the KJ. I would like to add one thing. If I am not mistaken the KJ will also have the same 4x4 systems as the
XJ, another plus. I, like most Jeepers (as turbo likes to call us) am very
concerned about the direction that Daimler is taking the Jeep brand, the entire
Chrysler brand for that matter. There is not a day that goes by that I don't hope that another manufacturer comes along and buys the whole thing
from the Germans. I would prefer that to be GM or Ford, if not them then
either Honda or Toyota. Now before everyone slams me for that last sentence
let me tell my reasons. I am not a fan of Japanese cars but its a well known
fact that the Japanese are very good at listening to what their customers want.
That's a trait that Daimler really needs to work on.

First of all turbo (Turbo??? nice name for some honda board but around here most smart people wouldn't ruin their engine with one) G.W. is getting blamed for something that was going to happen whether it was him or Gore in the White House. Everyone says, Good Lord the countries going to hell we are going into a terrible recession. Well anyone who has studied economics knows that you cannot have continued growth at the rate America has had forever. And before the numbers level off there is a slight dip. We are in that slight dip. So cry me a river, because everyone knew tech stocks were a gamble from the beginning and thier collapse wasn't going to not happen if Gore was in the White House. The whole economic situation is comparable to everyone's favorite president Bubba from Arkansaw getting such a great rap for saving the economy when it was G.W. senior's enactments right when he was leaving office and Alan Greenspan who got the economy out of the slump of the early 1990's. So instead of picking sides why don't you get behind the president and what he is trying to do because all you look like now is some whining liberal Gore lovin pansy.

And as a matter a fact I liked the XJ when it came out in 84. Don't get me wrong I had owned a SJ Cherokee and Wagoneer and I thought they shouldn't have dropped them but the XJ was a true to Jeep heritage as you could get at the time. I didn't necessarily despise the KJ (Kute Jeep) on the level I do now until that fateful announcement that effectivly replaced the XJ with the KJ. The Jeep lineup can have more than 3 vehicles in it. When Jeep Brass all figure that out they will be putting themselves in a more profitable position. The way the brand is going now it looks that Jeep could just be one vehicle that is Wrangler-esque in the Dodge/Chysler lineup. The other big 2 auto makers would kill for the rights to Jeep but the people who own it seem to care less about it. Jeep has the highest brand loyalty of any car company foreign or domestic, and those people are people like me and dillinger who like our XJ's, CJ's, etc, etc and keep coming back and buying them. As I have said before the KJ is the hip mommy/daddy step between the old beater from college and the suburban/excursion kid hauler in the future. The vehicle doesn't embrace brand loyalty it goes against it if anything.

Off road enthusiast may make up X percent or less of the Jeep brand but everyone knows we were the guys telling the people at work and our neighbors about our Jeeps and putting them up on pedistal trying to get everyone into one. Now I drive my CJ down the street and the response to my Jeep wave is usually the finger from some teenage guy or girl driving a wrangler. And I applaud any teenagers that drive Wranglers other than to embrace the status quo of teenage america but the truth is very few people take pride in their Jeeps anymore.

I hope for the sake of Jeep that you are right turbo that somewhere down the line when the KJ is repalced there are people like you and others raising hell about it being killed in favor for the KJ of the future but until then don't trash a supieror design that has stood the test of time and tell us XJ loving people that we have lost our marbles because we think our trucks which have stood the test of time 17 years and running are better than some trendy, low differential, IFS, V6, DC parts bin truck that is Jeep just because it has round head lights and a 7 slot grill.

So from me and the rest of the people who love the XJ and the solid axle jeeps that came before it, SHOVE IT... YOUR PANSY KJ CAN EAT OUR SOLID AXLE MUD ANYDAY!!!

Solid Axle Forever,
Griff

Are the Jeep sales down because they are losing market share, or are they
down because our newly non-elected president is in the process of talking
this country into a recession just like his daddy did. The Liberty may not be
what the Griff's and the Dillinger's want, but its almost here and I say
"GET OVER IT"! I can't believe the nerve of you guys strutin around, talking
about how Jeep and Daimler are abandoning you poor "JEEPERS". Before the
SUV craze took off Jeep was doing fine selling less than 100,000 vehicles to
you "JEEPERS" a year. In todays market that's a quick trip to chapter 13. The
Cherokee started the whole craze when it was introduced in 1984. Now the
Liberty is waiting in the wings to write the next chapter in the Jeep history. The
"JEEPERS" booed and hissed and whined when the XJ replaced the full sized
Cherokee and now eighteen years later the XJ is one of the most loved Jeep
vehicles of all time. I'll bet somewhere down the road when the replacement
for the Liberty is waiting in the wings the new "JEEPERS" will sound just like
Griff and Dillinger and their " Jeep doesn't care about me! " crap. You guys are
no more important to Jeep than the new guy thats going to plunk down his hard
earned money to purchase that Liberty. Come to think of it you guys are
probably less important. Reality BITES doesn't it.

I have a '99 XJ Sport, 5 speed, with 13k miles,
mint conditions, and I just made an offer on a
CJ7 that, if I get it, will go from a scrap heap to
mint condition by the end of the summer, so
as far as I'm concerned I'll soon own 2 of the
greatest Jeeps ever built, so I won't be one of
the poor suckers stuck with Liberties,
Varsities, and Willies in the future! Only hope
for Jeep is the Icon, but even that is no CJ7!!!

Perhaps sales are up because people are buying the Cherokee while they still exist... and all these discounts can't hurt either.

I find it funny how the XJ's sales are up more than the Grand Cherokee and they still insist on pulling the plug. DiamlerChrysler hasn't a clue what people want and they are going to drive Jeep right into the ground. I would also like to know what position DiamlerChrysler has taken on the Rubicon closures... they probably are FOR closing the trail so they don't have to run their future vehicles on it! Guess i should have been born 50 years ago when this was actually a FREE country and Jeeps were Jeeps.

The XJ is has the lowest drop of the bunch for the year and its positive for the month, but they're still killing it. Look at the numbers people thats damn good after 17 years of the same truck.

Of course the divinely inspired KJ is only a hop skip and a jump away from the showrooms and it is going to save not only Jeep but make DC profitable. YEAH RIGHT!!!

SOLID AXLE FOREVER!!!!