I agree with most if not all XJameson wrote. You should monitor the competition in order to stay on top and I do think one should "evolve". Don't you think though Jeep has maintained or improved capability with each new model? I'm not sure there doing it now. With all the reviews I've read that are Jeep friendly and even Jeep themselves suggest a compromise with IFS. Read the lingo carefully. They may be capable on their own but in comparison to who and at what cost. I'm not sure I'll buy another Jeep again. I purchased on top of my older XJ an 03 Rubicon and an 04 Grand Limited optioned out in order to have in my opion the "last of a dying breed". The only thing they raised the bar on is road handling and safety, and only to appeal to not current Jeep owners but "soccer moms".

BTW, I am one of Jeeps true enthusiasts and understand their position as a company. I only purchase Chrysler new cars because of my support for Jeep. Im also sure they will not go under if I never buy a Jeep again. It just saddens me for some reason I will never be able to buy a Jeep again without IFS.

EVOLUTION - to compare Jeeps to other CURRENT vehicles in the market is not the proper comparison. Sure, Jeeps may still be able to hold their own NOW, but what about a current Jeep against on from ten years ago? Put a Liberty against a Cherokee? What people are saying here is that Jeep as a company is turning their once true off road vehicles into an on road vehicle with the capability for limited off road driving. Also, watch who you call ignorant...

"The heavy off-road crowd is a minority, and it’s just not in DC’s best interest to keep putting money into this. It will be hard to justify spending money on a vehicle that usually sells less than 100,000 units per year."

This is true, but DC did choose to build the Rubicon despite this and the sales figures show it was the right move. The Rubicon is large part of the TJs increased sales numbers. If DC uses the success of the Rubicon as a guide, they will be very careful what they do to the TK.

Undecided:
All of my comments weren't directed at you, but at this group in general, based on many postings I have seen. I have seen no info, other than rumors, that the TK will have IFS, and I hope that it doesn't. I just don't think people should discount the technology until they see what the final production product can do. If Jeep builds a Wrangler with IFS, and it sucks, then people can bash them. I do however think that IFS is fine for the vehicles like the Liberty and Grand.

To be honest, I do not know why Jeep did not also fit the 2005
Grand Cherokee with IRS. With people demanding better on-
road performance from their vehicles, the IFS/SRA set-up will
simply not be satisfactory in the long term. I certainly would not
spend $40,000 for a vehicle with a suspension design
comparable to a 1993 Ford Explorer. For me, the performance of
the IFS/SRA combination is just too mediocre both on- and off-
road—too much of a compromise. Besides the Quadra-drive II
four-wheel drive system, what separates this model from the
likes of other IFS/SRA utility vehicles? If I were in need of a new
vehicle from the sector in which the new Grand Cherokee
competes, I would automatically choose the new Land Rover LR3
(AKA Discovery III outside of North America) because of its
advanced suspension design—borrowed from the Range Rover—
that affords it great performance in all conditions. It is Land
Rover’s pioneering vehicle for the Terrain Response system,
which seems to make it even more capable, as well. Sadly, the
new Grand Cherokee is a lost opportunity for Jeep to shine in a
sea of mediocrity.

Wait, I thought the CJ-5 was the last real Jeep? Oh no, that's right, it was the CJ-7. No, wait, it was the YJ Wrangler wasn't it!

It's the end of the world!!

"Jeep Ruggedness" and "2005 Grand Cherokee" in the same sentence? Somehow I don't see people associating IFS/IRS with rugged... It's a sad,sad day to see Jeep falling away...

ScramblerKen - You are right on the money. I have to say that your #6 is exactly the point that a lot of people are begining to grumble about. Jeep is no longer supporting its reputation by producing vehicles that live up to it. Rather, they are slowing cashing in, and one day their reputation will be gone. This is starting to show its ugly head with things like IFS on ANY Jeep, "Trail Rated," etc. Yes, it is now just the off road fanatics that are complaining, but we are the market innovators. Other consumers will realize what is happening soon, just not as quickly as we do. It is at that point that Jeep "cannot unring its bell." Once mainstream consumers have lowered their expectations for the Jeep brand, what will be left? A disturbing question indeed. Jeep may need to meet safety guidelines, and give the market what it wants to sell enough units, but I have a hard time believing that they cannot do this while maintaining a superior off-roading vehicle.

To clarify a few things:

1) The TK is scheduled for Model year 2007, not 2006. It will likely be produced late in 2006, but Jeep still has to work out some production issues. The contract to who will build the body is still undecided, and the new plant has not been built. It is always possible the TK might not show up until early 2007.
2) To make the Wrangler profitable, Jeep uses various components from other Jeep/Chrysler vehicles. Many components were shared between the Cherokee and Wrangler to keep costs low. I would not be a surprise to see Jeep borrow many components from the Liberty to keep the Wrangler TK production costs down. IE: the V-6 and use the IFS or other suspension components from the Liberty in the TK.
3) Safety will help direct some changes. For example, the removable top may disappear. The vehicle will have to meet side crash tests, and it will be hard to pass this with the current TJ design.
4) As Dieter has said, most consumers do not care what is underneath the vehicle. Sadly, he is right. Most buyers are concerned about color and fancy options. If you took a poll, you would probably find out most consumers don’t even know how many cylinders their engine has.
5) The TK body will be built and assembled by a third party, not Jeep. To be profitable, switching to uni-body is likely.
6) Jeep is not going away, but what made them special is. The 2005 Grand and Liberty are fine vehicles, but they are really not unique compared to their competition. The 2005 Grand and Liberty are technically no different than their competition, they are just different styling compared to the competition.
7) Solid Axle by design is more off-road capable than IFS. IFS is still very capable, but you have to look at your use. Just because the Military uses IFS, does not mean IFS is better. You have to look at what you use the vehicle for to determine whether IFS or SA is better. In reality, most Wrangler owners could get away with IFS, but being SA is part of what helped make the Wrangler different than the competition. Even if you did not need SA, it was always nice knowing you had it. Just like Corvette owners, they rarely ever drive the speeds capable out of the vehicle, but knowing it was there was why some bought the vehicle.

Things are going to change whether we like it or not. The heavy off-road crowd is a minority, and it’s just not in DC’s best interest to keep putting money into this. It will be hard to justify spending money on a vehicle that usually sells less than 100,000 units per year. We might as well enjoy what we have now, as things are likely to change.

SOLID AX - thanks for the laugh!

I tried to purchase a Wrangler from my dealer with IFS
and he said they do not come with IFS. Where is all this
IFS talk on the Wrangler coming from. I have not seen a
production TJ with IFS yet. I have seen the Rubicon put
out by Jeep, but I don't like the way it rides on the
highway, or to my kids soccer games, the gearing is to
low. Jeep needs to make the TJ a little lower to the
ground also, it is hard for my wife to get in.

TK, I never blamed Jeep for any of the safety changes. I also stated I understood why Jeep is changing their suspension, even if I don't agree. And I never stated Jeep never produced only all off road Jeeps. I think it would be hard pressed to say Jeeps didn't improve with time. Except for the shovel on the Rubicon it is by far the greatest production offering from Jeep. For my purposes the IFS doesn't do rocks as good as a SA, and Jeep removed that option for me, or soon will. Have you seen serious rock crawlers rip out a SA and install a IFS? Buy the IFS, I don't care. They obviously didn't listen to me, the people who want SA Jeeps lost. Calm down.

IFS is not now, and never will be, as capable off-road as an SFA set up. Check out the Jeeps Unlimited Liberty forum today when you have a chance. There is a thread from a major suspension kit supplier asking us Liberty owners how much we'd be willing to spend to get a good lift up front. The price range is low to mid $4k for a basic set up. That's a lot more than most enthusiasts are willing to pay.

The Liberty is a good SUV and I'm happy with mine. But I never intended to take it off-road when I bought it. I only wanted something to get through snow.

DC is making a very big mistake is they intend to put IFS under the '06 replacement for the TJ, or replace the TJ with a styling exercise such as the Hummer.

…Like “TK” noted in his/her above post, IFS/IRS has successfully
been used in military vehicles for years. Also, ATVs and Side x
Side utility vehicles have used the same suspension
combinations with excellent results. For those interested, the
new Yamaha Rhino 4x4 has absolutely astounding capabilities
despite having IFS/IRS.

Every Jeep platform has not always been an improvement off-road than the previous version. Take the YJ, that thing was a joke compared to the CJ (or the TJ). Jeep has built many vehicles over their history that have not been off-road worthy. The Jeepster of the '50s was only available as a 2wd. The Commando of the '60s and '70s were designed to be more on road friendly than the CJs. The FC trucks and the original Jeep Panel wagon (the grand father of the current Grand Cherokee and Liberty) were not designed as off-road vehicles. As for IFS, I have seen no loss in capability in the Liberty's suspension. The military has been using IFS & IRS since the 60s in the m-151 that replaced the M38A1(CJ-5) and the Hum-Vee. Also, don't forget that Jeep has to adhere to the ridiculous saftey and fuel economy standards placed upon them by our government and the insurance industry. Don't always blame the changes on the Jeep management, some things are out of their hands.

I do agree that there should be a "Rubicon" version of every
Jeep platform. Less bolt ons and more substance! They
have improved the Liberty Renegade, but it should be even
more serious.

Besides rumors regarding what the future Wrangler might be, Wrangler sales maybe up becuase of a couple other factors:

1) The War in Iraq.

2) Lack of competition.

How many 2 door 4x4 vehicles are left? I relaize many of these are not nearly as off-road capable as the Wrangler, but the Isuzu Amigo/Rodeo Sport, Kia Sportage, and the Tracker 2-door were alternatives that consumers bought. All of these are no longer produced.

As far as what the TK will be is still a guess, but it does seem likely that Jeep will use more components off of existing models to keep the Wrangler around. The I-6 will likely be replaced by the V-6 from the liberty. On a positive side, the Diesel from the Liberty could make it's way to the Wrangler.

I would not be surprised to see the suspension from the Liberty used on the TK.

Of course Jeep monitors this site! If you type in "Jeep News" on Google, look what comes up BEFORE Jeep.com - this site. Type in "Jeep Info" and this site comes THIRD, after two Jeep.com sites. This is not simply some off the wall, random Jeep info site, but it is THE biggest, most linked to, most read Jeep site on the net besides Jeep.com. Absolutely, they look at it. As for living in the past, of course I wouldn't want to take a CJ2A on a road trip, but there is simply relying on your past reputation and making a somewhat capable 4x4, then there is using current technology to create a completely capable 4x4 that is also excellent on the road. Jeep has been doing very well with the latter, but the former is a very real possibility when looking at where Jeep is starting to go with programs such as "Trail Rated." So it is essential for Jeep to evolve, and I love some of the things that Jeep is currently doing, but I worry about the future. For example, the Rubicon package is an excellent step - an optional package on the vehicle that stay true to Jeep. If they were to offer a similar package on every Jeep that they produce, they would be staying true to their heritage.

You really think the people at Jeep monitor what people
hear are saying? Yes they do get input from the outside,
such as Camp Jeep Roundtables, and AEV (who by the
way are excited about the new Grand Cherokee, even
with IFS). I doubt they take advise on running Jeep from
a group that is stuck in the past and does not realize
you have to sell vehicles to stay in bussiness! I too
worry about Jeeps reputation, however I have found
people take a rumor and make it the future Jeep. The
Liberty is a perfect example, it actually is a very capable
Jeep, but you had people assuming it was not before it
was even released. Jeeps future is very strong.

XJameson: So, it is wrong for Jeep to evolve? I can assure you that a current generation TJ is not nearly as rugged as my 1947 CJ2A, but I don't think Jeep would be selling very many vehicles if they still came with a 60hp 4cyl engine, 9" drum brakes, Ross cam and lever manual steering, etc...

... watch who you call ignorant. I know FOR A FACT that there are Jeep insiders who read and contribute to this website because they know that places like this are at the heart of Jeep and the love owners have for the vehicle. Yes, not every piece of information given will be accurate, but after having read this site for almost four years, I can say that more than half of the info given has turned out to be true. People like you, who ostracise those who really do "know what future Jeeps will look like" only cause harm for the rest of us.

I saw a show the other day on the history of the Jeep,
and it talked about how people hated the round look of
the CJ's when it was first introduced, much like people
prejudged the Liberty. It's called evolution and every
automaker has to deal with it. If you ignore all the false
rumors and realize that all the current Jeeps are still
best in class for off-road performance and listen to what
the people at Jeep are saying about future Jeeps you
will realize Jeep will always be the best off-road
machine. The most ignorant thing someone can do is
assume they know what future Jeeps are going to be.

Don't read too much into this.... The Wrangler sales are only up (and will probably continue to be) because a lot of people know what's coming for its replacement. If what we've been led to believe turns out to be true - IFS/IRS, unibody, V6 car engine and other bad stuff - this is the last real Jeep, and it's got 18 months left.

I personally know 6 people (including me) who will be buying new TJ's or Unlimiteds in the next year-n-a-half because of what's probably going to happen in 2006.

Nice advertisement for DC. Slow news month...