to xj&zj owner: I admit I made a mistake. I suggested you get a dictionary, when it seems painfully obvious a book on phonics is required. Is it your head or just simply poor reading comprehension? But I digress. You asked for ways IFS is an improvement: 1) handling, 2) stability, particularly when towing heavy loads at high speeds and/or in windy conditions 3) turning radius, 4) it is attached to automobile that does not look like a K-car wagon with rain gutters.
Oh, and the warranty on the bail joints was completed over a year ago when the recall was first noted. I, like the above post, would like to see the news story of the wheels coming off. But then given your reading comprehension, it would seem you have mistaken possible occurrences related to recall notices with actual occurrences.

I applaud Jeep for continuing to improve the safety on Jeeps, especially the Wrangler. I wish Jeep would listen more to its customers about other improvements. I love the antilock brakes, foldback soft top, interior lights, cruise control, shoulder belts, large gas tank, fold and tumble back seat, full roll-bar cage, etc. The ESP will help handling in snow, rain, etc. I think that Jeep needs to return to: Easliy removable doors; fold-down tailgate for more space; improved storage security; mirrors on the body, not the doors; etc. The Jeep Wrangler is fun to drive, park and take offroad. Adding flexibility and options is the key. I would have ordered a new Unlimited, but it does no come with antilock brakes: WHY? Same with the Rubicon: Why no antilock brakes? How many Wranglers are sold with antilock brakes? What about side airbags, etc.? I love the Wrangler and improved safety, all in one package! There is nothing like it!!!

My comment is not unreasonable. Many of those complaining about Jeep are still raving about their Comanches, Honchos, Scramblers, and CJs. That is acceptble. Others complained about the Unlimited not having a Rubicon version, and then continued to complain at the price when giving what they ask for. Also acceptable. And still others claim to only buy used Jeeps, for only suckers buy new. Still acceptable. But if you are not buying new Jeeps, why should DCX listen to you? What makes the opinion of an individual who has not spent money with a company in 10, 15, 20 years, or never directly, valid. I know some of you are brilliant software enginneers (haha), but companies, any company, does not listen to those who are not employees, customers, or stock holders. My statement is based on the fact that if you purchased a used Jeep or own a Jeep purchased over 10 years ago, you are not relevant to the company's current trends and marketing. While some of your ideas are excellent and worth exploring, there is a larger majority worth ($) listening to.
Also, everyone keeps referring to the Liberty as a cute-ute, but with no qualification why? Others cute-utes don't have low range, skid plates, the gearing, the suspension travel, or the strength. Am I to assume it is a cute-ute based on IFS. If so, are the LR3, Range Rover, 4-Runner, and WK now cute-utes. If it's the looks, does a little stock CJ or Islander Wrangler not scream cute. To be disappointed with the loss of the Cherokee is fine and reasonable, but it has been four years and billions of dollars in sales and development. The present Liberty is staying, until as El Duce put it, layers of minor refinement define a new model.

"Clearly those against progressive thought and technology are not buying new Jeeps, and therefore their opinions don't mean shit."

Congratulations on the dumbest comment among many. I'm a software engineer, and hardly a luddite. What's "progressive thought and technology" have to do with something like, say, IFS in the Liberty? IFS isn't a new concept, by any stretch. With regards to the subject of the original article: ESP is wonderful, but a little common sense on the part of the driver is infinitely better.

Here's a bit of "progressive thought" for you: there's nothing cutting-edge about the Liberty (although the limited slip in the GC incites interest). There are no technical triumphs that herald the inherent superiority of the Liberty over it's predecessor. It's a boring cute-ute. The automotive world is built upon layers of minor refinement, and subsequent hyping of said refinement beyond proportion. In lieu of refinement, we often are presented with cost-effective design in pursuit of financial refinement (and better bottom line). The Liberty and it's ilk don't so much represent an engineering revolution as an homogenized commodity. We might as well be talking about widgets.

*yawn*

Skramblewishes,

Jeep does offer the closed-cab soft top similar to Best-tops Half-Top. Take that and remove everything in the back, and you've got yourself a truck bed. The option can be seen in a picture at the end of the Wrangler build process, in the Accessories category under the "Wrangler Off-Road 05" option. I dont think the top is included in that particular package, but it is shown in the picture on an Unlimited.

If thats not enough, Im sure there will be more coming soon from the after market if the demand is there. Maybe something innovative from AEV?

Sorry, some bad info i guess.

The Dakar concept is held in high esteem simply because the Liberty has failed to muster approval regarding its viability as a replacement for the Cherokee. If the Liberty had been designed as a SFA, having comparable "useful" interior space, and without its ponderous weight disadvantage, it would have likely succeeded in satisfying both the existing Cherokee crowd as well as new buyers. The Liberty may have also been put into public and defense service as was the Cherokee. Perhaps we will see the Chinese Cherokee imported and fitted with the crd and six speed manual ... wishful thinging.

To YJ Jeeper:

A couple of minor corrections. The Liberty is produced at a new plant while the Cherokee and Wrangler were produced at the older plant. (The Wrangler is still mostly built at the old facility).

Technically, they could have produced both the Liberty and XJ Cherokee at the same time. The Liberty plant is under-used as it was designed to produce 2 complete vehicles as well as a test station for development vehicles. They also laid off many employees once the Liberty went into production as the Liberty plant is very automated.

To see some photos of the Toledo facility, take a look at Al Miller's web site:

http://www.almiller.com/

The Scout/Compass is rumored that it will be built at the Neon plant (Belvedire Illinois), not Toledo. The Neon plant is currently being expanded.

As far as DC wanting to put more money into Chrysler, I've seen some articles claiming Daimler still thinks of Chrysler as a money drain. If the economy is slugish, DCX could always pull the plug on expansions.

I would still be concerned with Jeep over-expanding. With too many choices, Jeep could hurt their own sales. For example, the Rescue and the Commander are both basically 7 passenger SUVs. The Commander is a done deal, so why would DCX want to produce another vehicle that is so similar? R&D on a new vehicle is not cheap.

Instead of more Jeep vehicles, I still would not be surprised the expanded capacity at Toledo gets used to build non-Jeeps. Next Gen Liberty could have a Dodge sister. The new TK Wrangler could have a Hyundai cousin.

It will be interesting to see what develops in the next few years.

There have been no credible rumors of the demise of the Liberty. If the next generation of the Wrangler manages to keep the SFA then the Liberty still will have plenty of room within the Jeep lineup as the less expensive vehicle of the "luxury" side of the Jeep lineup.

While I understand many people do not like the Liberty styling (and I definitely understand why many miss the Cherokee), it is an off-road capable vehicle. Check out http://www.lostkjwest.com/ if there any doubts to this.

The Compass concept-type vehicle is aimed at a much different market than the Liberty.

here is my comment to wj&kj owner. First: This is a response I would expect from a Libbie owner. Worried about the size of my manhood...
Second: You still did not take your own advise and get an informed opinion I'll help you. Go to Yahoo and type in Jeep Liberty recall notices then to Detroit News Auto Insiders. Read about the 318,000 Libbies they recalled for lower ball joint failure. you should be getting a recall notice for your 03 Libbie soon. Also read about how unsafe the suspension is. Read Forbes 438,000 Libbie recalls for the tires coming off because of suspension faults and ask the people who lost control and crashed how much they like IFS.
Third: I did not mention ESP. I am taking you advise and waiting until I have an informed opinion to comment.
Fourth: Orginality the 05 Grand looks like a Trailblazer with round headlights. Maybe you should send a dictionary to Jeep so they know the defintion of orginality. Because there is nothing orginal about the 05 Grand.
Fifth: I have owned 5 Cherokees, 2 Grand, Wrangler,and a CJ7 and I still have an 88 and 01 Cherokee and a 98 5.9 limited. I am waiting for the word on a Jeep pick-up if they don't make that I'll be ordering a Rubicon Unlimited in the Spring. I hope my next Jeep is as reliable as my last 9.
Now I just gave you 756,000 reasons why IFS is unsafe, unreliable, and not an improvement over a solid axle. Now do your homework and give me at least one way it's an improvement or how it makes a Jeep safer by having IFS...

Yes, El Duce....Good point..My take on the whole "Jeep thing" is why use a widget when you can use a KNIFE........? Pre-Liberty,Pre-'05 GC's are just that..............Knives..not cheap plastic widgets!

Scramblerwishes, congratulations on getting a Jeep Unlimited. I too have one on order, although I still don’t have a build date yet. I decided to go all out and order a Rubicon edition. My dealer already has 2 LWB Rubicons on his lot, but they were not the color and options I wanted.

I too am looking for ways to convert my future toy to be ‘scrambler’ like. I saw the soft top mentioned by YJ Jeeper. Compared to the Halftop by Bestop, Jeep’s version has side windows and does not require you to remove the overhead speakers. The design gives you a bit of an ‘extended cab’ look. When I last talked to Bestop, they were planning on releasing a version of their Halftop for the Unlimited come summer 2005.

I also talked to the maker of California/slick tops (www.slicktops.com). He is in Canada, and he too is planning on buying an Unlimited and has been asked by many for a halftop for the Unlimited.

There is also a web site devoted to the Unlimited (http://www.wranglerunlimited.com/) but I have run into occasions when the site is down.

When I was talking to AEV in the past about the Brute, I mentioned the idea of them producing some kit to convert Unlimiteds to a pickup truck. I thought they could sell a modified roll cage and use their cab top from the Brute. Sadly, they did not seem too interested in the idea.

Did anyone get to go to the SEMA show? I heard there were a couple of Unlimiteds that were made to be ‘Scrambler like’. I wonder if any of those companies have plans to release a scrambler kit?

I don't want to be a wet blanket concerning the demise of the Cherokee; certainly progress must occur. But, by parallel, Ford has managed to continue to revitalize the Mustang image, indeed it has become the ponycar icon. And, Ford has listened to its constituents and continued the revitalization with a solid rear axle as requested by its constituents. The axle issue was maintained because it allowed owners the opportunity to customise their vehicles. The Cherokee was also an icon, it epitomized the simple SUV. And, Jeep did what ...

Although I do not know how ESP will fare on the Wrangler, I think it is more fitting on the Grand Cherokee and the Libery. People do drive fast in SUVs, people do take sharp corners. Not everyones a perfect driver. Instead of spending lots of cash on redesigning a more roll-resistant vehicle (which, at this point, is only obtainable by lowering ground clearance and widening wheel track,) they can simply integrate an already proven Mercedes stability control system at a minimal cost of research and development to the consumer into the vehicle.

The reason the Cherokee was ditched with the inception of the Liberty was due to the inability to immediatly produce the two vehicles simultaneously. The factory that produced the Cherokee was re-fitted to produce the Liberty. With the current expansion of the Ohio plant, they can do now what they could not do a few years ago; produce more vehicle platforms. It also wasnt plausible at the time to expand the plant just so that they could produce the XJ and the KJ; as was mentioned before, the two four-door vehicles would compete in a similar market. (Although many would argue that they are very different markets.) The idea of the addition of different vehicles to the future Jeep lineup gave way to a stronger business case to invest the money into a larger plant. The plant IS being expanded, we WILL see more than just the new Wrangler and the Liberty and possible the Scout produced when the plant is at 100%. This only reinforces the hope of Wrangler derivitives (LWB, 4-DR, SUT.) With DC backing the Chrysler group, Jeep now has the resources to compete in more markets.

They also have more flexibility to explore ideas and integrate concepts into what they produce. The Jeep Dakar and the Jeep Jeepster concepts, which seem to be popular targets to criticize Jeep and saying they make empty promises, were BOTH used in the primary design of the Liberty. I had the chance to see the Jeep Dakar in person at Camp Jeep 2004 in Virginia. Awesome vehicle, but without the removeable top... it was no different from the Cherokee aside from the fact it had less cargo capacity. The Liberty is the result of the Dakar. The fact is, Jeep is making its ideas a reality. They work with what they have and give people what they want. If it werent for the success of the GC and Liberty, which are less off-road capable than the Wrangler but never-the-less more desirable to the mass auto-buying public, we wouldnt have our beloved Wrangler or Jeep today.

Jeep will continue to build out-of-the-box offroaders, but you have to give them breathing room to compete in todays flooded market. That means jumping on technology such as electronically controlled variable-locking differentials, electronic stability programs, and yes, independant suspension technology. Many would argue the new Rovers, which are techology driven as opposed to bare-bones, can out-wheel a stock Jeep in any situation and still have the precise on-road ride and handling of a luxury car. Jeep has to be innovative if they want to be seen as the leaders in 4WD technology once again.

As far as Hummer, who can take them seriously... they build all of their vehicles (minus the H1) off of existing GM platforms like the close-to-dead Isuzu. Hummer cannot claim any bragging rights against Jeep.

To further comment on what the above poster, Sean M.,
mentioned regarding the Liberty’s upcoming position in the Jeep
line-up:

After much contemplation, I deduce very much the Liberty will
no longer be part of the upcoming Jeep line-up. If the Wrangler-
line is expanded with the inclusion of a pick-up and/or four-
door (based off a LWB two-door to be similar along the lines of
the current Wrangler Unlimited), then of what purpose will it be
to have the Liberty slotted between the Wrangler utility four-
door and the base Grand Cherokee Laredo. Will it simply be
there just to please those who cannot afford the Grand
Cherokee? I do not believe it will, since the upcoming Scout
model will target those who desire an inexpensive “lifestyle” 4X4
of Jeep moniker. Also, I see no merits of the Liberty in terms of
functionality, style, size, and price over the new Grand Cherokee
and/or the future utility four-door Wrangler. In the end, Jeep will
probably retire the Liberty from carrying the Jeep name, since
there is truly no room for it, as it will ultimately compete with
both the Wrangler four-door and Grand Cherokee Laredo; then,
it will be reintroduced as a Dodge model to complement the
Durango, which it will do so very nicely, anyway. If anybody
believes my statements are due to hatred and ignorance of the
Jeep Liberty, they are not. Personally, I believe the vehicle is
perfect for its intended purpose, which is to fill the line-up until
the true successor to the Cherokee arrives—the four-door
Wrangler. Currently, Liberty is being used as the sacrifice model
for Jeep, so to say, before becoming the “new” Dodge.
DaimlerChrysler (DCX) likely had this strategy planned a long
while ago, but it has just taken time before those outside the
loop to see the final result come into full manifestation.

Wonder if they're going to put it on the '05 Chinese Cherokee?

http://www.almiller.com/jeep2500.html

actually using your equation, it would then be -1... as for the rest, i cannot respond for it is not a language of this world

Forgot about the Jeep function math wizard.

If Jeep = KJ or WK
Do while TotalPoints > 0
TotalPoints = TotalPoints - 1
End Do
End If

Sorry Zero points

Liberty wheels are falling off? I would love to have the link to this news story.

...When you think Jeep you think off-road capibility you think deep snow, rocks, and mud. ...

All of which the Liberty can handle quite well, thank you, much better than the Mazda/Ford Escape, they aren't even in the same class of vehicle! That is the misconception that most people have about the KJ, that it is in the same class as the Escape,
V, RAV4, etc... which are just cars with an SUV body on them. The KJ, while it may have a more refined ride and handling, is still an SUV first.

Thank You WK & KJ Owner! I am sick of all of the Liberty bashing on here. I am very impressed with its on road and OFF ROAD ability. This is not a cute-ute as the people who have never driven one claim. The IFS on the Liberty is quite amazing, and stock Libertys have successfully navigated the Rubicon trail just like stock Wranglers and Cherokees and Grand Cherokees. The Liberty is worthy of the Jeep name and is by no means in the same class as a
V, RAV4, Tracker etc. The one thing I wish Jeep would do is offer the Rubicon T-Case and Lockers as an option on ALL Jeep models.

1. Clearly those against progressive thought and technology are not buying new Jeeps, and therefore their opinions don't mean shit. Sorry. I know some of you are true mountain men with boulders in your driveways and sisters for wives, but you are not a concern for any manufacturer if you are not purchasing their products. Guess what, auto manufactures care very little in the used car markets. You then ask about factory certified cars... it is strickly to convince new car buyers of the quality and longevity of the product they produce.
2. The use of ESP is a strong marketing idea, as well as a good safety measure. I know that it's a big government conspiracy trying run peoples lives along with DRL, side impact standards, etc. But companies like GM have already make ESP a future standard, and DCX is following to maintain market.
3. If you dislike IFS, the Liberty that has been around 4 yrs (move on in life), technology, safety, or progress in general, it's okay. There are plenty of CJ, ZJ, YJ, and XJ out there. Make sure you drive carefully and those around do the same, we wouldn't want to lose such great tainters of the gene pool.
4. The Dakar will never be made. The Liberty was based on an early smaller baby Jeep concept and the Dakar concept. And for 2005, Jeep placed a flat Wrangler-like hood on the Renegade to give you the closest we will see to the Dakar.
5. Everyone has the right to an opinion, but only an informed opinion. Most of the critics have never driven a KJ or WK on road, let alone off, and no one has yet seen how intrusive the new ESP systems will be. Hold judgement until then.
6. Jeep owners love to bitch. Why is it the Land Rover owners aren't staging a revolt to the IFS/ IRS LR3/ Disco3? Perhaps technology and evolution work.

The rescue will be built as a 2006 or 2007 model year jeep. The resuce and commander are very different vehicles. As far as the liberty going away...uh no....The jeep liberty will be redesigned in 2008. The tk WILL be offered in 4 doors, remember the tk is a wrangler not a libery. I would guess the tk to be very basic and simple in design. I would also venture to say the scout will be out in 2006 or 2007 model year as well. Watch out next year I expect 3 new jeeps added to the line up for the next 3 years!!!! Commander,Rescue, and Scout/compass???

Might be a good idea if it really works. Are there any reports of ESP actually preventing a rollover? This should not raise the cost to the consumer either. Gee DC, look at the nice REAL Cherokee that China has... wish the US consumers could still get this rig instead of that mini-van they call the Liberty.

Dont bring the YJ into this. They did not have ESP back then, the repositioning of the springs for the YJ was the best thing they couldve done before the quadracoil was introduced. And the square headlights? Comon... thats a 15 year old argument. But I do agree that ESP is the wisest choice. GM is also widening their stability-control systems to cover all of their SUVs. Its only natural DC would follow. as far as the "dumbening of Jeep"... the dumbest thing they could do is nothing, and just let all of the competition take over.

To quickly answer your questions.....Yes, I am 12. And, Yes, I could beat you up :).

and 2 is better than 1

Agreed zj rick.

It's fine if Jeep want to offer ESP on all its models. Hell you can even make it standard, but it should be selectable so it can be turned off. It is sad to hear the ESP/ traction control systems are interfering with traction offroad. Pajeros/Monteros are in the same class as Land Rovers and Jeeps; world class offroaders. It's fine to use modern electronic gizmos to satisfy the majority and assure safety (especially to the government), but remember what got you there and that a minority does not want to get stuck miles from a main road.

what's the deal with the use of "cutie-putie"? why are you quoting a fat, liberal, lesbian? rip on the Liberty all you want, but these are your choice of words.

ESP should definitely be an option, as should ABS brakes and side-curtain airbags. I trust myself, much more than the government, to decide whether or not these safety options are truly worth their wild.

good driver = 2 points
good vehicle = 1 point
3 points is better than 2 points.

I don't think the KJ is anywhere near that far less capable than a stock YJ. Have you driven a KJ off road? Or are you, like many others, just basing that assumption on the fact that it has IFS so it can't be off road capable. I haven't had the chance to go off road with mine yet, but have seen some drive off road and have driven them on the Jeep 101 course and they are by no means a little red wagon. Now I'm sure it won't compare with my '47 CJ2a, but I have walked through things in it where built YJs, TJs and even CJs had trouble!

here is my comment: Yes, the Libbie tested was 2wd. The article that I read had nothing about being prelowered. Yes, it was replicated. A Germany magazine Auto Bild did the test and had similar results. The magazine article read DC should recall all of them.

To quickly answer your questions.....Yes, I am 12. And, Yes, I could beat you up :).

Oh, and for the record, the only thing on the back windows of my Jeeps are the two respective universities my wife and I graduated from. Sorry to ruin your theory.

I think this much we can all agree on:
FACT = The Liberty appears (at least to the majority of the consumer market) as a toned-down, less off road capable, more on-road savvy, version of the Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee.
FACT = This distances Jeep (evident in increasing amounts of on road advertising) from its off-road roots and its venerable off-road image.
- What happens when Jeep no longer has its former off road image that so many consumers (whether actual off roaders or not) find so attractive??

I can't agree with zj rick more. Yes vehicles do have limits, but a good driver vs. an inexperienced one makes all the difference.

Since I've gotten more experience wheeling, I have definitely increased the capability of any vehicle I drive. I now take my bone stock KJ places I was tentative to drive my CJ w/ 31s and a locker.

you can talk all you want about suspension, but the driver makes a very big difference

It is lower than the YJ, it has IFS, and yes I have seen it (and driven it) off road. At one rock obstacle in particular that my trail group went up, every single stock TJ, YJ, XJ, and ZJ got up it with little to no problems. Both of the two KJ's could not get up it. It was extremely easy to point out the IFS as the main cause. So yes, it is FAR less capable than the YJ.

True, but compared to the YJ, the KJ is a lowered red-rider wagon. Thus giving it the award for least capable Jeep in over 20 years. Certainly doesn't seem progressive when one thinks of Jeep. I would consider progressive (for Jeep) to be tying in these new innovations into a package that is more off road capable; not less. Cutie-putie still stands.

...The liberty is the least off road capable vehicle produced by Jeep in over 20 years...

The same could have been said in 1987 about the YJ Wrangler. The Liberty is to the Cherokee exactly what the the YJ was to the CJ. I bought a YJ in 1989 and took the same kind of thrashing from CJ owners that KJ owners get from XJ owners.

So pointing out blatant facts is complaining? The liberty is the least off road capable vehicle produced by Jeep in over 20 years. I never said that this was necessarily a bad thing. It is interesting that you acknowledge it as a bad thing by terming it as "complaining." At least you're coming to terms with the appropriate "cutie-putie" phrase I quoted for you earlier.

Actually, your unimpressive rhetoric is not pissing me off in the least. I have simply addressed the topic and responded to your concerns. I am however disappointed that such ignorant people like yourself exist. You are looking more and more pathetic in each post. Food for thought: the Liberty has been around 4 yrs; if you are as tough as you claim, when will get over its inception and stop complaining?

I think the suttle point needs to be made that the KJ is the least off road capable vehicle to be made by Jeep in over twenty years. Is it really worth standing up for it?? I heard somewhere that they might roll?? ...and I think we all know why a 12 year old could beat you up.......it's cuz you drive a Libbie!

(pissing this KJ fella off is too much fun.....do you think he'll respond to me again??)

I seem to remember that 60 minutes tested some CJ-5s and rolled them over again and again. This lead Jeep to build the less capable, more road savvy Wrangler YJ, so using the logic being applied to the Liberty, the YJ dimished the Jeep brand long before the KJ was even thought of. Keep in mind, each generation of Jeep has been a better on road vehicle than the previous (ie XJ vs full size, YJ vs. CJ, etc...) and this trend will continue or the brand will cease to exist, that is just reality.

Martin, I also take my Jeep on the beach and I hope this doesn’t become a problem.

A couple of summers ago my wife and I went to Nantucket and rented a Toyota Sequoia. I don’t know if you have any in Australia? Well this vehicle did have very similar option, I can’t remember what it was called but it did interfere with driving on the beach. The good thing about it was that you could turn it off. It was too expensive to take my GC; I should have rented a Wrangle.

I am an Australian Wrangler driver - 4.0 2003 Sport (only version available here without a lid or it would have been a Rubicon).

I do have a real and genuine concern. I spend a lot of time sand driving in some very remote and extreme conditions on the Coast line of South Australia.

It is a necessary part of driving on some of these very soft stretches, to let you tires down to 12-15psi, and to “not” steer the way the car is traveling, (but the way you eventually want to go) or you just wouldn't go round the corner. This style of driving is often necessary to come off the beach and up into the dunes in very soft sand making new tracks, or even using existing tracks.

My concern is that this style of driving would fool the ESP system into thinking I had lost control of the car, (as in the case of skidding on ice) and would break or throttle for me. As many of the readers would know, momentum is definitely your friend in the soft sand! My fear is that the car would cut the throttle and I would not go over or round!!

What do other readers think? Could I turn of the ESP?

I think for now I will stick with my 03. I am not interested in buying a car with any driver aids at all. I have a number of friends with fancy driver assist technology in there cars, which simply does not work in extreme conditions. A Pajero (Biggest Mitsubishi 4wd in case they are called something else in the US) owning friend of mine could not get over a fairly easy sand dune, as it was sensing the wheel spin, and cutting power to the wheel, and he was loosing all momentum and only getting half way up. He needed to take a huge long run up. He was most embarrassed as he had spent the few weeks before the trip telling me how his car could go anywhere (this was his first trip, lol)

Actually, Auto Bild never rolled the Liberty, but did lift two wheels. The majority of SUVs on the road, particularly those capable of traveling offroad, are easily to put up on two wheels. Tests have even shown BMW X5s up on two wheels through slalom courses. Your comments seem to indicate a good argument for ESP on SUVs (the original topic). And Yo-Yo, I would respond to you, but you seem to be making an ass out of yourself without an assitance.

why am I being brought into this zj&zj owner.... i simply ask for a link... thought this was a new problem like with ford explorer/ firestone tires... never said you were incorrect.... besides i'm a wrangler owner and while i think libertys are descent trucks, i just like to keep up on all things jeep
to all.... stop talking about your jeeps and drive em

Wow..... I'm truly reeling from these comments. What are you 12? You got to love lowbrow attacks; what next, do you beat me up? First, the Liberty that the rolled over was 2wd and prelowered. It could not be replicated again with either a 4wd or the lowered version; check the next issue of Autoweek and even Consumer Reports. Also note no other publication has noted anything similar. Second, re-read your own post. You misread the article assuming some 700,000+ Libertys were affected. Short-term memory or hypocrite? Third, I actually own and have driven a Liberty, so I believe that makes me qualified to judge its stability. And finally, to you and yo-yo (a queer ass name in itself and using the phrase "cutie-pie"... i think someone need their hetero street cred checked) calling a Liberty owner gay is juvenile. My guess is you both are either immature, undereducated, or both. One has to question why you speak so much about gays. Must be your own pent up homoerotic frustrations. But I guess my question finally has been answered; your manhood, or lack there of, is based on your car.
(And this is now officially off topic)

Likely Response from Wj + Kj owner = "The rainbow thing actually works out because....well.....frankly......I like men, and that's why a bought my cutie-putie little Jeep :)"

here is my comment to wj&kj owner; The mistake you made was buying a Libbie. Before you comment about my reading comprehension why don't you and Patrick get together with CJ2A owner and have him read Forbes article slowly to you. So you could comprehend 47 reported problems and accidents as a result of a suspension problem.
Handling and stablitiy would be an improvement, but it's too bad that Autoweek tested the handleing and stablitiy of the Libbie and rolled it over not once , but twice. As a result Jeep had to lower the cute-ute 2 inches. You are right about another thing the Libbie doesn't look like a K-car with rain gutters, it looks more like a cross between Kia and Neon. The only thing it is missing, for you, is the BIG RAINBOW on the back window.

Here is the link to the Forbes article mentioned by xj&zj:

http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2003/11/10/rtr1141785.html

You do need to do a little fact checking yourself, the 438,000 and 318,000 numbers mentioned were for the same recall. 318,000 were to have a heat sheild added to the ball joint and 120,000 were to be inspected. The recall notice was issued in November of 2003 and only 47 vehicles actually reported problems as a result of the defect.

I'll try to make this quick... First, progress and originality are two distinctly different thing. Grab a dictionary. Changes like IFS and ESP ARE progress as it relates TO Jeep. Second, while you are right that I would not opt for a woman who loves working on cars, your sophmoric comments about Libertys and knowledge of tools are revealing of your inteligence or lack there of. How small is your manhood to have it justified by a car. Third, Jeeps have never been that reliable. The Jeeps you see being worked on are probably warrantied, and I doubt an 05 WK was already having problems. Maybe they will be delt with by shade tree mechanics in three to four years. And fourth, I never stated I think Jeeps should be watered down. I just said these improvements were necessary. All the Jeeps I have owned (90 xj; 94, 97, 98 zj; 01 wj; and 03 kj) have done their jobs: handle deep snow, towed a boat, haul kayaks and bikes, travel offroad (I have a steering wheel, so I avoid large boulders), etc. with or without IFS.

here is my comment to kj&wk owner...Progressive thought and technology is not following GM or any other name brand. A progressive thought is when you come up with your own ideas and everybody follows, that's progressive thought. The Liberty or Libbie as you girls or want to be girls call it is the first mistake Jeep made; Second mistake Jeep made is the O5 Grand... Last week I stopped at the dealership and talked to the owner and the mechanics there. The first bay had a Libbie getting ball joints and the next to that was an 05 Grand with the front axle laying on the ground.
I was a mechanic there for ten years and I never had to pull a solid axle or change a ball joint..If you ask any Jeep mechanic that tells you the truth, they will tell you they have nothing but problems with IFS.. These are the same problems that GM has been having for years.
I could go on all day so what I am tring to say is if you have an opinion take your own advise and get an informed opinion..
These mountain men you are talking about the ones with the good looking sisters probably could take apart every nut and bolt on a Jeep and put it back together. I doubt you even know the difference between a socket and wrench so who is tainting the Jeep gene pool????
Jeep has to wake-up and start making their own trails again and stop going down the wrong path that the other brands already took.. When you think Jeep you think off-road capibility you think deep snow, rocks, and mud. That is the JEEP name. If you don't like it buy a Ford Escape..

Common sense is great, but sometimes things occur outside of one's control. That is the purpose of ESP. For example, if an SUV is cut-off on the freeway, jerking the wheel so as to avoid an accident may result in a rollover. ESP, through throttle and brake modulation, could help the driver maintain control and stability.
While IFS, or even IRS, are not new technologies, they are new to Jeep. I think "WJ & KJ owner" was commenting ESP. Remember, there are lots of other SUVs to compete with. In 1990, Jeep competed with the s-10 blazer, new explorer, 4-runner, pathfinder, and trooper. Now it has 10 times that competition, plus luxury hybrids mixed in there. Do you expect Jeep to survive with ox cart technology? If Jeep can use an IFS, add techno gadgets, and still build an SUV more capable than its competition, it is still true to itself.

To YJ Jeeper and Scrambler Ken,

Thank you very much for the information and web sites. I will continue to pursue after market resources for the conversion. I am hoping someone out there will make a "Scrambler" cab attached with a metal brace that will act as the forward box for the bed. If not, the torches may come out this spring!

In reference to everyone's worries that the next Wrangler is going to be badly influenced by Hyundai's involvement... let's set the record straight.

The company that will be involved with the production of the Jeep chassis is Hyundai Mobis not Hyundai Automobile. While both belong to the same parent company, Hyundai Mobis is an auto parts maker servicing many auto manufacturers (similar to Delphi, Dana, etc.). They produce chassis modules, cockpit modules, ABS and air-bag systems, Telematics and electronic devices.

I think the Liberty is a safer bet staying in the line up than the Wrangler. Jeep's sales are somewhat up side down in that their entry level vehicle ( the Wrangler )is their slowest selling model. The Liberty and GC are both higher in sales. The new Scout may crowd out the Wrangler.

From what I have heard, the new TK will have spin off platforms. No one is quite sure whether they will be Jeeps, Dodges, Hyundais or some other marque.

On another note, I am awaiting a new Unlimited ( should be delivered in three weeks). If anyone knows of any after market company out there that can help be convert it into a Scrambler, please let me know.

Also remember this about the ending of the Cherokee model: as designed, it could never pass the impending higher crash standards (especially side impact). The money and effort to get the Cherokee to meet standards was used to develop an entirely new model, the Liberty.
My '99 XJ weighs in at 2900 lbs, the Liberty at 4000 lbs, that's a serious amount of high strength steel.

Also, isn’t interesting that the U.S. Army Rangers are using Land Rover Defender 110 and the Marine Recon units are using the Mercedes G Wagon. Aren’t they both solid axle, coil sprung? I guess the Hummer is just too big for off roading and for the planes that get them there.

This is in response to WJ & KJ owner: Land Rover Defender owners are afraid that Ford will ruin the Defender. The concern is so great that even the British Military has asked Ford not to redesign the Defender, they say they like it just the way it is. I don’t know about anyone else but I like the square look of the military style 4x4. Just look at the new spied G Wagon; it looks just like the Mercedes ML.

the comments are more interesting than the esp story. I
do not think that the libby is in any danger of getting the
axe because I disagree that a 4-door wrangler appeals
to the same buyer. They may be roughly the same size
and price but I wouldn't be caught dead in one and my
wife wouldn't be caught dead in the other.

Also, free advice to Jeep. Hummer is trying to steal
your market directly. And every time you build what I
consider to be a true Jeep vehicle, they are going to try
to spin it as if you are copying them. (The Rescue is a
knock off of the h2, etc.). So when you do build a 4-
door wrangler, seriously consider calling it Dakar.
When they try to spin it as if you are copying the h3,
which will beat you to market, you will have a leg to
stand on in the PR war.

1. "Old school Jeepers" got over the "station wagon" long before the first drawing of the XJ Cherokee was started on the super computer that was used to design it. The XJ was NOT the first "station wagon" vehicle in the fleet, i think the Grand Wagoneer was the first way back in the 50's. The Cherokee started the entire "SUV" market and is still a better vehicle that ANY SUV on the market today. Funny thing is, these "old school Jeepers" are only now realizing that a Cherokee equipped equally will out wheel a SWB Jeep.

2. DC is never going to produce a bare bones 4 door Wrangler, i beleive this is a pipe dream and will never see the light of day.

3. Screw ESP!!!, if designers would learn how to make vehicles that don't flip over when the driver farts (Ford Explorer) and people would learn how to drive (you just don't drive 90MPH in a truck dumb asses!) we would not need electronic gadgets to drive for us. This is just another high dollar computer item to break and cost thousands of dollars to repair.

4. The one thing that sets Jeep apart these days from every other car company is the Wrangler, stop making the classic Wrangler and Jeep might as well change their name to Dodge and call it a day. Like what DC did to the Plymouth brand, no brand definition left, no brand to sell. If the fools in the suits @ DC and Jeep cannot see this and treat the Wrangler and it's loyal customer base as if they we made of gold they might as well throw in the towell. Say the name Jeep and folks DO NOT think Grand Cherokee... they think CJ and Wrangler, period.

here is my comment "Oh, yea...the "dumbing" down of Jeep has FINALLY begun."......... Am I to assume that it is a bad thing to use technology to save lives and ensure the longevity of our beloved Wrangler. Look at it this way, the manufacturers are being pro-active in the application of technology, instead of waiting for the government to mandate it. Like it or not, it's coming. The good part is that with the auto companies developing it, it will cost less and work better than a gov't mandated system. Tire pressure monitoring comes to mind.
I have faith that the Jeep engineers will use the right blend of technology and tradition to keep the next generation Wrangler a JEEP!
When I first began my career in the auto industry my grandfather said, in all seriousness, that we should bring back the model T. Personally, I like fuel injection, ABS brakes, air conditioning, and ESP. Some people automatically put down what they don't understand.
Safety systems like ESP are worth it.
Lives will be saved, maybe yours.

As much as I wish what WTJ said would happen, sadly, I doubt it. It is more likely the 4-door Wrangler will be just a dream that never materializes. Let’s not forget that when the Dakar concept appeared, there were strong rumors that this vehicle would actually get produced. Unfortunately, the Dakar was too close to size and cost of the classic XJ Cherokee, so the Dakar slipped away into concept heaven. Even the XJ was suppose to stay around when the Liberty first appeared, but DCX suits saw an issue with selling 2 vehicles that were marketed to the same groups.

The Liberty is still a strong seller in its class. The Liberty offers a wide variety of choice, especially if you compare it to a 4-door Wrangler. How many small SUVs are bought without power windows or locks? You still can not get these as a factory options in the TJ. If the TK is similar to the TJ, as a general purpose light SUV, a 4-door TK would not appeal to enough consumers.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m no big fan of the Liberty, but it seems Jeep is moving away from the off-road specialty class and trying to appeal to more of a wider audience. The current breed of SUV drivers just wants the appearance of off-road capability. Take away butt warmers, DVD players, and other such features, and these folks would scream. I would not be surprised the TK offers some of those ‘creature comforts’ that can be found in other SUVs. The ‘rude and crude’ simplistic days of the Wrangler maybe ending.

As far as a truck version, I doubt we will see one off of the TK platform. There seems to be little interest in making small pickup trucks these days. The Ford Ranger is one of the few left as Toyota and Nissan have been making their small trucks bigger. The Tacoma is bigger for 2005, and Nissan only offers extended cab or 4-door Frontier pickup trucks. One of the reasons Jeep passed on building the Unlimited as a pickup truck variant was it was too small.

Speaking of pickup trucks, did anyone catch the comments in the Canadian article regarding the Gladiator concept?

Snip…..
While the Gladiator looks to be built off of the new Dakota platform, which would give it V6 and V8 power, dynamic handling and serious off-road capabilities, it's not. Instead it rides on a unique body-on-frame architecture, and powered by the Italian-built 2.8-liter inline four-cylinder turbodiesel that currently resides under the hood of the diesel-powered Jeep Liberty CDI.
End snip…..

For the full article see http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=31956&pg=1

Interesting if the TK Wrangler becomes a body on frame design…

As far as the Jeep Rescue, this is another vehicle I think will end up in concept heaven. The basic dimensions and cost seem to be very similar to the Jeep Commander (aka, 7 passenger Grand Cherokee).

I know, we keep hearing that Jeep is going to expand into having lots more models for the showroom. We have heard that tune for a long time now, and Jeep still basically only has 3 vehicles. Grand, Liberty, and Wrangler. (I consider the Unlimited part of the Wrangler group).

Don’t misunderstand, I think there are definitely 2 new models coming (the Commander and Scout), but it still seems unclear that the TK will give Jeep all kinds of variations to the line.

Sadly, the Unlimited has not been a big success, so the suits at DCX might be a bit apprehensive in expanding the Jeep line with Wrangler derivatives. Also, when ever I’ve seen articles regarding the next generation Wrangler, there is frequently a comment that another vehicle would be built off of the platform. The added comment is that it might not be a Jeep vehicle.

The current expansion plans for the Toledo plant is to have capacity to build twice as many vehicles as they do now. With Hyundai being one of the major contributors of the TK, I wonder if they have plans to build a new Hyundai vehicle off of the platform they are using for the TK?

I really do not want to sound down on Jeep. Actually, I hope Jeep does expand and offer many great things in the future, but based on economics and the past, I’m not so sure.

Now back to the main article here, ESP. How well will this work in the TJ? How much added cost will this bring to the Jeep line? Unless the ESP system is not all that complex, I would be surprised to see this feature added to the TJ Wrangler as it approaches its last year of life.

WTJ..I think you're thinking in the right vein..I agree...though I will say...I have NEVER been a fan of the Liberty.....to me it's an overpriced..oversized Honda
V....In Jeep land that's as low as it goes in my book..I hope; as many here- that the TK will breed some new life into this 'ol warhorse...

While there is plenty of evidence that ESP does help prevent rollovers, there is little or no evidence that old school Jeepers will every get over that K-car wagon called a Cherokee.

ESP would have been the savior for the venerable CJ-7, which, by
the way, was forced into discontinuance after great government
and media pressure when the “discovery” was made that a utility
4X4 could not be maneuvered like a sports runabout, to prevent
it from over-turning if handled improperly. I would rather have a
new ESP-equipped Jeep in order to maintain the current model’s
excellent off-road ability by electronically limiting a potential
roll-over, and possible media and government outburst and
regulation, than to have a newer, more bastardized model which
is cheaper, lower, wider and generally pathetic off-road without
proper modifications. Already, this has happened to Jeep in the
form of the square-headlight Wrangler YJ. I do not want it to
happen again. Will ESP water-down Jeep heritage? Absolutely
not, in fact, it will preserve it.

This is exactly my point....for my use of the term "Watered-Down" Jeeps! ROFLMAO!!! A dumb-proof Jeep for those who don't know how to "Jeep-Wave" at other Jeepers...I've seen these people already...they'll go nuts for this ESP stuff....Oh, yea...the "dumbing" down of Jeep has FINALLY begun.