Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-06-2011, 08:22 AM   #11
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Hi Dave,
Just to clarify, by using the MSD 6A module you are eliminating the Ford ignition brain that goes bad every once in a while-- correct?

And by doing this mod, does the ballast resistor go away as well?

Lastly, being totally honest, did you see an all around improvement? Did you see an improvement only at low rpm, or possibly only at high rpm, or off idle foot-to-the-floor throttle response? Did you have an ignition issue to begin with that this mod cleaned up?

thanks Dave
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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-06-2011, 12:59 PM   #12
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To eliminate that stock "brain" you have to do the The "Nutter" Bypass
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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-06-2011, 02:21 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepboy45 View Post
Hi Dave,
Just to clarify, by using the MSD 6A module you are eliminating the Ford ignition brain that goes bad every once in a while-- correct?

And by doing this mod, does the ballast resistor go away as well?

Lastly, being totally honest, did you see an all around improvement? Did you see an improvement only at low rpm, or possibly only at high rpm, or off idle foot-to-the-floor throttle response?

thanks Dave
Doing the mods mentioned in this thread made my ignition far superior to OEM. Most of the performance gains came from the MSD ignition. Let me step through each mod one at a time.

Distributor Cap and Wires - I was very sceptical that this mod alone could help at all. I posted my scepticism on this site but after installing the larger MSD cap and rotor I thought my Jeep was starting easier. To make sure I held off on all the other mods for a week to see how my CJ would start. My Jeep was left outside and I would go out to start it early morning even when I didn't need to drive it. Not a big difference but I do think it was an improvement. What's that mean? It must be that there was cross-fire in my distributor cap. Sparks must have been going down to ground or out the wrong spark plug wire. The cap and rotor I removed were not new but they were not in bad shape either.
Let me say once again the larger distributor cap and wires do not produce a more powerful spark. They only make sure all the spark energy goes to the spark plugs. DO NOT get a MSD ignition control without getting a larger distributor cap (or HEI).

Timing Springs - These springs gave me better throttle response.
Here is what JeepHammer says about the timing spring modification:

Quote:
HEAVY springs make the CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE LATER, OR HIGHER IN THE RPM RANGE.

LIGHER Springs make the CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE SOONER, OR LOWER IN THE RPM RANGE.

Lighter springs will make the vehicle 'Jump' when you push the throttle,
But they can very easily come back to haunt you with detonation when you are cruising on the highway...

They also make trying to 'Finesse' an obstacle more difficult if the vehicle is going to 'Jump' every time you touch the throttle!
Quote:
About all distributors will give you the same TOTAL advance (Centrifugal + Vacuum),
But the RATE at which each comes in is what gives you smooth power throught the power band.

Centrifugal should start about 800 RPM and be 'All In' by about 1,600 RPM,
Sometimes even faster if you have a light weight Jeep with 'Short' gears, closer to 3.70:1 ratio.

If you have 'Tall' gears, you might want that centrifugal advance to come in a little slower so you have some 'Wiggle Room' when the vehicle is straining.

MSD Ignition Control
- Now here is were you can expect major gains. My jeep starts better in the cold and immediately runs very smooth right from the start. It should have more power throughout the RPM range but I need to run it longer to give more specifics.
Why is MSD so much better? Capacitive Discharge, that's how. Energy goes it a capacitor and discharges all at once. This same technology is used in camera flashes. A camera may only have 2 batteries that only produce a total of 3 volts but it uses capacitive discharge to produce a high energy flash.
An MSD ignition module starts off with 12 volts but produces an output of 520 to 535 volts. That voltage is fed into the coil where it is amplified to tens of thousands of volts. This is why you need a larger distributor cap, to separate the terminals and make sure the spark goes to the correct spark plug.
Plus the MSD ignition produces multiple sparks. As many as 5 at lower rpm. At higher rpm one very strong spark is produced.
When you install the MSD Ignition Control you must remove the ballast resistor.
My CJ runs fine with the ignition module on the fender disconnected. It is not needed but I did not physically remove mine. My thinking was that I could wire back up my OEM ignition if the MSD module died. When I was changing the wiring for the coil I began to wonder if I would ever really need to swap back to OEM. It would be a hassle to undo this mod but if I was stranded in the mountains it would be a bigger hassle to try to get another MSD.

Coil - The coils main purpose is to increase the voltage going to the spark plug. Even an OEM coil may increase the ignition voltage 100 fold. To increase the voltage a coil simply has more wire windings in the secondary (output) portion of the coil. It sounds very easy to produce a high voltage performance coil but in reality I usually don't notice much difference when installing a high performance coil. Why? Because when a coil produces a higher voltage it also produces lower current. It's a trade off and this is one area you simply don't get something for nothing. Don't get me wrong performance coils are not a waste of money. They do improve performance but don't expect a whole lot from just replacing the coil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepboy45 View Post
Did you have an ignition issue to begin with that this mod cleaned up?
My Jeep was running fine before. I never like to do a mod at the same time as a repair. You never want to do a mod to find out your engine runs as bad as before because the mod didn't replace the bad part.
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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-06-2011, 02:35 PM   #14
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The Nutter Bypass eliminates the ECM under the dash. The MSD module eliminates the OEM ignition module on the fender.
Here are some Nutter Bypass drawings:

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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-06-2011, 03:45 PM   #15
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Thank you for clarifying a few things...
You've spent as much time writing replies to this as you probably did actually DOING it.. !!! So thanks for answering some questions I had.

I totally agree about not doing mods at the same time of repairs. I like to see what mod really accomplishes above and beyond a good running factory machine--- not just a poorly tuned, issue-plagued nightmare.!!

On a side note, I am probably way off, but I thought the nutter bypass had to do with carbuerator/timing issues, specifically with a 258. Does that even apply to the 79 with a V8 and aftermarket carter (edelbrock) carb and intake.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but someone else brought it up, and it threw off my thoughts...

thanks again Dave.
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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-09-2011, 09:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusaDave9 View Post
Spark Plugs
I need to make some corrections and clarifications.
If you installed the larger distributor cap and wires you can now gap your plugs to .045" to .050".
But if you also installed an MSD series 6 ignition module you can go wider than that. These high performance ignition modules can produce much higher voltages to arc across a wider gap. They also have the ability to maintain higher current. With the 6A Ignition control MSD recommends you gap your plugs at .050" to .060".
The problem is the manufacturers don't recommend you gap the plugs any more than .008 larger or smaller than they were originally set at. This is because the ground electrode would no longer be flat above the center electrode.
Since the plugs for my V8 come with a .035" gap they wouldn't work. I did some searching to find different plugs. I found that Autolite 646 plugs come with a .059" gap but are otherwise similar to the Autolite 65 plugs that normally install in the 304. I plan on getting a set of those for my V8 but I plan on decreasing the gap before installing them.


BTW if you want to get spark plugs that are similar to OEM except have one trait (such as gap) that is different then check out this link:
Tuning information: spark plug construction, heat range, indexing, gap settings, plug torque, racing plug information at ChampionSparkPlugs.com
It lets you search by whatever criteria you want: gap, heat range, thread size, ect.


This maybe a stupid question but if you replace the cap with a bigger cap will you have to readjust the timing for the spark to hit the cylinder at the right time with the cap being bigger the gap between the wire plugs will be bigger or is this so minimal that it won't make that big of a differance? And also should you start with the old advance springs to see how it accelerates before deciding on lighter springs. I would like better acceleration but don't want the jumpiness that is mentioned by jeephammer.

Last edited by 1986cj7; 11-09-2011 at 09:43 AM.. Reason: requestioning

 

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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-11-2011, 09:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1986cj7 View Post
if you replace the cap with a bigger cap will you have to readjust the timing for the spark to hit the cylinder at the right time with the cap being bigger the gap between the wire plugs will be bigger
No, the size of the distributor cap won't affect timing. The rotor in the distributor will still rotate half as fast as the crank shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1986cj7 View Post
should you start with the old advance springs to see how it accelerates before deciding on lighter springs. I would like better acceleration but don't want the jumpiness that is mentioned by jeephammer.
The springs are optional so yes you may want to hold off on installing them. You can do some experimenting to get good throttle response without the jumpiness.
Mr.Gasket #925D springs are working good for me.
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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 11-15-2011, 11:59 PM   #18
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Dave, anything new to report since the upgrade? Often it takes time for things to "settle out" and you see all the subtleties of the improvement.

Waiting for a couple more parts to do mine....
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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 12-12-2011, 10:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepboy45 View Post
Dave, anything new to report since the upgrade? Often it takes time for things to "settle out" and you see all the subtleties of the improvement.

Waiting for a couple more parts to do mine....
Busta how has the upgrade gone you said you wanted a little more time to see the results of the upgrade. And also would this be a better upgrade then hei, I'm just conserned about the gear of the hei dist. eating the cam gear. Which do you think is better and or cost effective?

 

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Default Re: TeamRush Ignition Upgrade 

Old 12-12-2011, 12:23 PM   #20
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Wow. Sorry guys. I forgot all about this thread.

Yes, I still think it's a fantastic upgrade. I did quote JeepHammer saying the lighter springs may make the vehicle jumpy. That all depends on how light of springs you go, and on your engine and other factors.
Let me say that the springs (Mr.Gasket #925D) I put into my dizzy is worked great for my 304. I get better throttle response and the jeep is not in the least bit jumpy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1986cj7 View Post
would this be a better upgrade then hei, I'm just conserned about the gear of the hei dist. eating the cam gear. Which do you think is better and or cost effective?
I think this is a much better, more cost effective, upgrade than an HEI ignition. Yes the gear can be a BIG problem. You can swap out the gear on the dizzy but sometimes that doesn't work because the shaft size isn't right. If you get a HEI ignition get a good (expensive) one. But WHY? If you've already got a good distributor don't replace it. The OEM dizzy and gear works great. Just replace what isn't working so great. That's another reason I say this is a better upgrade. VERSATILITY! You can start off by just replacing the cap, rotor and wires. Later get a MSD module and/or coil. Maybe the springs later.
Overall this gets you a better ignition at a lower cost than HEI.
I say don't waste your money on HEI. When I first heard of the TeamRush upgrade I was skeptical. Last year I was thinking of getting HEI. I am glad I changed my mind and went this route.
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